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Author Topic:   How many sons does God have?
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2162 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 111 of 151 (408340)
07-02-2007 12:10 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by ringo
07-01-2007 10:08 AM


Re: Strange hermeneutic
The context is relevant in individual statements, but if we want to know who the person really counts as her children, we have to look at the broadest statement.
Come now--you don't really believe this simplistic answer any more than I do.
Many words are occassionally used in a very broad or figurative sense to make a point. If we defer to the broadest usage as the "real" meaning or let this color all other uses, the word meaning will grow until the word loses its meaning.
The frequency of usage is a major factor. We've got to identify the rare and figurative uses. It would be better to take the most common usage as the "real" meaning, but even this is too simplistic.
The truth is that there is no one "real" meaning, no one single biblical meaning of "son of God". There are multiple biblical meanings. The phrase is used differently by different biblical authors at different times and places.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by ringo, posted 07-01-2007 10:08 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by ringo, posted 07-02-2007 3:33 AM kbertsche has replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2162 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 113 of 151 (408386)
07-02-2007 6:27 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by ringo
07-02-2007 3:33 AM


Re: Strange hermeneutic
If Jesus even once included "all nations" as "His brethern", you are not entitled to prefer an alternate usage.
Unless He only used it in this broad sense once or twice, and generally used it in a narrower sense. We should probably take the phrase in its most common usage unless other factors indicate for us to take it differently.
And note that you are asking a different question. "Who are Jesus' brothers" is a different question than "Who are God's sons". While they are logically the same, they may normally be used in different senses (e.g. one may tend to be used more figuratively than the other).

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 Message 112 by ringo, posted 07-02-2007 3:33 AM ringo has not replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2162 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 120 of 151 (408668)
07-04-2007 1:22 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by jar
07-04-2007 12:20 AM


Re: All Are Not The Sons Of God and other Buz nonsense
One of the beautiful thing about the Bible is that it is so filled with contradictions that you can quote mine it to prove any point you want.
It is only "filled with contradictions" for someone who approaches it in a very simplistic fashion. If you approach science in the same way you will think that wave-particle duality is a contradiction. A more sophisticated approach will assume that maybe these things are not contradictory, but reflect a more complex reality.

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 Message 118 by jar, posted 07-04-2007 12:20 AM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by iceage, posted 07-04-2007 1:52 AM kbertsche has replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2162 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 123 of 151 (408697)
07-04-2007 5:58 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by iceage
07-04-2007 1:52 AM


Re: All Are Not The Sons Of God and other Buz nonsense
How many different schools of thought are there concerning well established fields of science compared to the vast number of denominations, theological positions, etc.
True for "established science", but that's not very interesting. (Theology likewise has established positions where there is little to no debate, such as "Does God exist?")
Scientists focus their research on the "unestablished science" where there are many unanswered questions (e.g sources of dark matter, origins of life, etc.). Here there are also a vast number of theories, and arguments just as passionate as any in theology.
The reason for the large number of belief systems within Christianity is, precisely as Jar alludes, that there are many contradictions and inconsistent messages in the Bible.
I don't think so. I think it's for pretty much the same reasons as in science. There is incomplete data which may be suggestive of contradictory conclusions, but the data is not definitive and not truly contradictory.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by iceage, posted 07-04-2007 1:52 AM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by iceage, posted 07-04-2007 12:27 PM kbertsche has not replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2162 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 136 of 151 (408803)
07-05-2007 1:16 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by jar
07-04-2007 11:57 PM


Re: We are not all Sons of God according to the Bible.
Ah, the old "there is no contradiction if I can make up some conceivable way to explain them away Theology".
You guys seem to do that a lot
And we do the same in science. But usually in theology we don't have to invent a whole new theory of reality to deal with the apparent contradictions, as we've had to do with particle-wave duality in physics.
Frankly, I don't see it as worth wasting any more time on.
You are probably rigbht; I think we are at an impasse on this issue.
One group in this thread claims:
1) "creation of God" and "son of God" are essentially synonymous, and everyone is a "son of God".
2) biblical authors who use the phrase "son of God" differently (e.g. John in Jn 3) are anomolous.
3) the Bible is full of contradictions, and it is useless to try to reconcile them.
The other group claims:
1) "creation" and "son" are different words and concepts.
2) "son of God" is overwhelmingly used in a restrictive sense, NOT including all mankind
3) biblical contradictions are only apparent, and can be reconciled in numerous ways.
These two groups work from two different sets of presuppositions. Each is viewing the details through their own lenses. We're not really discussing the presuppositional differences, so will not resolve these differences.
(But frankly, I don't understand why the first group is even bothering to participate in a forum which asks "What does the Bible really mean?", because they don't really seem to care about this question.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by jar, posted 07-04-2007 11:57 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by jar, posted 07-05-2007 10:13 AM kbertsche has not replied

  
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