Noah's Flood Came Down. It's Goin Back Up!!

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buzsaw writes:
Only the Bible predicted such technology as this with all nations viewing things in one spot on the planet.

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Where, specifically?

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Revelation 11:9 "And from among the nations and tribes and tongues and nations do men look upon their dead bodies three days and a half........"Revelation 18:9 "And the kings of the earth, who committed fornication and lived wantonly with her, shall weep and wail over her, when they look upon the smoke of her burning, standing afar off for the fear of her torment......."There are also several texts concerning the appearing of Jesus in the clouds that he will be widely viewed by earth's inhabitants. This event happens at the time of the Armageddon invasion of Jerusalem and where the war is, the cameras will be. The prophet Zechariah states that he will return to the Mount of Olives from where he ascended.

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I'm surprised that you don't know that this is a completely useless way to reach any decent conclusion. Do you have any knowledge of statistics?

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I'll see what I can find. In the meantime do you have some stats to refute my statement?

This, for the Mediterranean Region:

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The protection of natural forest ecosystems reflects the cultural level of a people and of a country and it should, therefore, be a first priority issue for the Mediterranean countries.

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Forest fires and Mediterranean forest ecosystems have co-existed for millennia and they will continue to do so. There is, however, a continuous change in the balance between them and with a tendency for an increase in forest fires and a reduction in forests. This is mainly the result of human activities. Mediterranean forests are restored nearly completely after a fire if they are protected from human activities. Consequently, forest protection is not accomplished just by putting out the fire.

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During recent decades, there has been a dramatic increase in both the number of fires and the area burnt. This is one of the main reasons for the initiative of UNESCO to organize this Conference.

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Page not found – GFMC
Hmm, the link doesn't seem to work. Any suggestions?[Fixed broken link. --Admin][This message has been edited by buzsaw, 05-31-2003][This message has been edited by Admin, 06-01-2003]

You made the assertion. You back it up.It would take a lot of effort on your part to read enough to understand why a few, personal, bits of anecdotal evidence are a very poor way to arrive at a safe conclusion.Those doing research (e.g., in the medical area) will take anecdotal information as input. They would never, ever arrive at a conclusion from it. They know all to well about selection bias and how unreliable an indivdual is at judging patterns in complex datasets. If they suspect something they gather real data and do careful analysis.

This for Canada:

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Climate Change in Canada - Fire and Ice
... Drier conditions and an increase in lightning storms are expected
to result in an increase in forest fires in the Boreal Forest. ...
adaptation.nrcan.gc.ca/posters/articles/ wa_06_en.asp?Region=wa&Language=en - 24k - Cached - Similar pages
[ More results from adaptation.nrcan.gc.ca ]

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Boreal forests occur in the cooler, moister climates of the Prairie Provinces. Further south, where the climate is warmer and drier, these forests are replaced by aspen parkland and open grassland. In a warmer climate, these ecoclimatic zones may shift northward. Much of the southern forest that supports our timber industry may come under stress or even be eliminated.

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Hogg and Hurdle, 1995
Potential impacts on forests

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decrease in tree growth rate and timber production in southern forests
decrease in survival rate of tree seedlings
elimination of some southern forests, replacement by parkland and grassland
increase in growth rate in northern forests or wet sites
increase in forest fires
increase in insects such as spruce budworm and forest tent caterpillar

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Buz
I went to this page
http://nfdp.ccfm.org/...ed/reports/provinces/bc/P3121_10.PDFI used July and August figuring that'd be the worst months.I could see when graphed no increase in number of fires. This is hard numerical data. It, by itself, doesn't mean much. It is just a small part of what would be needed.Then there would have to be careful consideration to be sure there wasn't a problem of reporting bias and other types of things.

Canada and US --- Opinion of Nasa physicist{quoteHow has Global Warming Contributed to the increased Number of forest fires in recent years.The process of global warming has an effect on the level and frequency of precipitation. Why is this so? As the global temperature increases so does the amount of evaporation of water form the earths surface, it does this in the form of direct evaporation from the soil, from bodies of water and through evapotranspiration from plants. This moves more water into the gaseous state in the atmosphere, if you think of the planet as a closed equilibrium system then unless the temperature is dropped the water will remain in the gaseous state, however the earth is a bit more complicated than that as it undergoes temperature changes throughout the day and the water will condense into clouds but the question is as the temperature is generally higher what will be the frequency of the precipitation. Dr James Hansen a physicist for NASA believes that the increased temperature will lead to less frequent rain which will cause an increase in forest fires due to the ground remaining drier for longer spells of time creating plenty of tinder material for lightening strikes or other forms of ignition to cause fire to spread rapidly. He also states that the rain when it does fall will be a lot heavier causing floods and landslides. What evidence id their for this. The forest fires in January of 1994 around the suburb's of Sydney were believed to be caused due to human interference but they burned uncontrollably due to the unusually long dry spell that had occurred before, the same is believed of the fires that raged through New South Wales during July and august of this year. The south west of America has recently been hit with a number of forest fires this is partially due to logging waste mounting up but also due to the drought it has been experiencing in recent years, the diagram below shows a map of the US shaded using the Palmer Drought Severity Index (PDSI) with red being extreme drought and blue being extreme moist conditions, this is taken from a 45 year average using information gathered by Mark W Patterson of the University of Arizona. This clearly demonstrates that there has been drought in this area for some time. .........................To conclude it I believe that there is sufficient evidence to assume that the effects of global warming have contributed to the increase in recent years of forest fires. It can also be linked to increased flooding and landslides. It is not solely responsible as ever man has a direct role to play but he merely amplifies the problem in this case, but in the end global warming is down to human mistakes and lack of fore sight so in reality we are to blame for these problems.[/quote]users.aber.ac.uk/jlc9/forestfires.htm

There's more on forest fires like the following, but I'll not take up more bandwidth on that unless someone wishes to challenge this point further.

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More recently, a steady increase of forest fires in
the United States has made a negative impact. During the year ...

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http://www.geocities.com/...rooney2001/Environmentalism.html[Fixed broken link. Buzsaw, do you need help placing links in messages? If so, please let me know via email. This is the second broken link you've posted in a single day. --Admin][This message has been edited by Admin, 06-01-2003]

Ned, your link is hard to read and I really didn't learn much from what I made out. I'll leave you to refute my links if you care.

There isn't anything to refute. There may be a local increase or decrease in forest fire rates. Neither of us has any real data and analysis to say which is happening.Your assertions and a paragraph for a local area of indeterminate time frame don't tell me anything.

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That verse states (to me, anyway) that such a feat is within the ability of the two prophets. Unfortunately, I don't see anything that indicates how often the prophets will use their abilities. You're making an assumption (about a 3 1/2 yr drought) that is not supported by the text. I'd comment on your statement about TV, but I think ConsequentAtheist has dibs on that issue.

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In understanding Biblical prophecy, you take data given from all the prophets and all of the individual prophecies of the prophets which pertains to a given event and draw a conclusion from the combination. For example, from the total context of the above prophecy we know that the drout and other plagues were extensive enough to alarm earth's entire population greatly. From other prophecies of John in Revelation we learn of a third of the trees and much of the grass being burnt. We learn in Revelation of problems with the sun, causing men on earth to become "scorched with heat." We see a discription of rivers, lakes and oceans being polluted and stagnant. We learn of significant famine in the 6th seal and so forth. So one can safely and accurately conclude that there will be at least a three and a half year significant drout, and maybe much more.

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That doesn't sound much like "looks like" blood to me. The way I read that bit, I'm thinking transmutation, right? Like water into wine?

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Either way it becomes polluted and undrinkable. I tend to favor the color of red from stagnation and algae as I consider and factor in the other data given. The prophet evidently saw red in the vision and blood came to mind.

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I certainly have been listening. I've also been climbing in Colorado and Wyoming over the past couple years, and have had quite a few hazy climbs as a result. But this does not necessarily mean that forest fires, overall, are becoming increasingly frequent. You would need some data to support that theory. And the U.S. Forest service might have something like that... (Hint, hint.)

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I happen to have grown up in Lander Wyoming from the mid thirties to the late 50's and have been going back to Wyoming and Montana occasionally since to visit relatives and fly fish. There's more charred area in Wyoming now than back in the 40's and 50's for sure, including Yellowstone, though the Southwest has been hit much harder.

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Buzsaw writes:
Um, I dono, but it's predicted to become so dim that the sun and moon will look red like blood. What holds the moisture up there? I guess the same god who made it all in the first place will do his adjusty thingy bit to do it.

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Ah, so you don't understand that bit either. Me too. Cool. We ARE making some headway! What holds all that moisture up there? Er, gravity?

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My thinking is that the prophesied bad time heat gets it up there, much of it high in the atmosphere. Then the higher the heat raises it, the less effect the gravity has on it, so just as our space ships can orbit beyond the power of gravity to drop them, so the water vapor mist will be able to hang out there
There. Does that sound a little more scientific?

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But I didn't ask you how to discern prophecy. I asked you, in a hyperbolic way, if there was any chance prophecy was open to multiple interpretations. Your answer was "Nope." Why isn't it?

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God isn't the author of confusion and to have multiple interpretations just doesn't make sense to me. I've studied these prophecies and followed things related to them for for over 50 years and the multiple interpretation bit just doesn't fit in any prophecy I can think of.[This message has been edited by buzsaw, 05-31-2003]

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There isn't anything to refute. There may be a local increase or decrease in forest fire rates. Neither of us has any real data and analysis to say which is happening.

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Your assertions and a paragraph for a local area of indeterminate time frame don't tell me anything.

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Nothing to refute?? You need that I copy and paste more data regarding other places on the planet to refute your allegations that I'm fulla beans on this forest fires becoming more frequent and intense over wider areas? There's more pages of similar links on google. You ask for documentation. I produce. You reject. What can I say? {shrugs)

This site:
http://www.geocities.com/thomas_rooney2001/ Environmentalism.html
Simply makes an assertion with no backup whatsoever. It also makes a number of simple minded mistakes so I wouldn't consider it all that reliable.This one:
The University of Wales, Aberystwyth Users Site
offers no references or any hard data either. it is simply another assertionWhile anecdotal evidence, increasing interest by the press or whatever might be a reason to look into the possibility that something is changing none of that proves anything.The site I gave you gives forest fire occurances over a ten year period in a major forestry area. They have not gone up. This isn't a matter of opinion it is in the data.As I said one area of the world and even the most recent ten years doesn't prove anything but it's the only real data that you and I have posted here yet.There is nothing to refute.

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You err when you equate global warming with global drought. Just as in your home state of New York where warm summers are more humid than cold winters, global warming would mean increased melting of the polar ice caps, higher ocean levels and increased moisture content in the atmosphere (higher humidity). While it is true that some regions of the world would become dryer, many regions would become wetter. If you need a global drought in order to fulfill Biblical prophecy, global warming is not the right mechanism to produce it. You therefore cannot point to global warming as a harbinger of fulfilled prophecy.

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I seem to have no problem finding scientific support to much of the common sense and observation stuff I'm posting. I believe the facts support what I've observed on the incidence of climate change, global warming and forest fires over my lifetime.Now as to global warming and drought, this, for example, and please note expecially the last paragraph:Global Warming: Drought
(03/14/2002) Scientists say "clearly discernable" climate shift in 1970s that brought on the current 27-year drought in southwestern Australia could be a foretaste of global warming impacts on the rest of Australia. Global warming may already be making south-western Western Australia drier, a new study has found. Southwestern Australia has been bone dry for 27 years, and Australian government scientists warn the lengthy drought could be a foretaste of future experiences across Australia due to the greenhouse effect. Scientists with the Commonwealth Scientific, Industrial and Research Organization (CSIRO) are investigating the possibility that a climate shift has brought a long term decline in rainfall over the southwestern region of Western AustraliaBates said although the research has yet to prove the dry spell is the result of global warming, the changes in weather are in line with greenhouse predictions. "These changes have occurred from the same starting point of the mid-1970s," he said. "They don't prove global warming, but they are in line with the projections, but the problem is that they're happening 25 to 75 years ahead of those projections."The immediate cause, says Bates, is a clearly discernible climate shift that took place in the mid-1970s. "At that time the tropical Pacific warmed abruptly and stayed warm, and there was a sudden warming in sea surface temperatures in the Indian Ocean. Since then there have been unusually frequent, persistent and intense El Ni?? and fewer La Ni??" he said.Bates said similar findings have been made by scientists in New Zealand, suggesting the problem is affecting the entire southern hemisphere. "This is not something that appears to have affected southern WA only, it is a hemispheric change," he said. [/quote]http://www.eces.org/ec/globalwarming/drought.shtml[This message has been edited by buzsaw, 06-01-2003]

Buz, you were talking about global drought. All the climate models predict changes in precipitation in different areas some higher, some lower. I'm not sure but I think the overall effect is of increased global precipitation.You haven't made any progress.This is why there is a very difficult rigorous process called science. It is the best we have for overcoming individual human errors and mispreceptions. It brings multiple viewpoints to bear on one problem and depends on data and reasonig to arrive at a, perhaps not universal, but at least consensus answer.You may start with your feelings about things but you need better than that.Besides this is sooo far off topic now. I don't recall anyone posting any biblical passages referring to more forest fires in coloado or drought in Australia. So what are we discussing them for?If you think it is the end of days then give me a date for the end (with error bars of course) and we'll place a little bet.