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Author | Topic: The Big Bang, Abiogenesis, and Evolution | |||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
trossthree writes: I was speaking metaphorically. A Christian Believes in creation, a Biologist believes in biology, and so on. That's a clumsy metaphor. It should be more like: A biologist believes in biology (though "belief" isn't the right term), a creationist believes in creation, a Christian believes in Christ, and so on. A Christian doesn't necessarily believe in creation and a creationist doesn't necessarily believe in Christ. “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels ------------- Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
trossthree writes: All forms of Science are not proven absolute. That's the beauty of science. Everything is open to improvement and correction. It isn't mired in "absolutes" or "proof". (You'd do well to forget those two words.) “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels ------------- Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
trossthree writes: So, why is it that nonbelievers "know" that this reality is the absolute reality? They don't. "Absolutes" are the realm of the confused.
I wonder, if any of them were on their death bed, would they claim that Science is absolute? Nobody who knows anything about science claims it's absolute. “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels ------------- Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
trossthree writes: I don't think it is rational in any sense to forget any understanding. I suggested that you forget the words "absolute" and "proof" because you don't have any understanding of them. Neither has any value in discussions of science. “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels ------------- Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
trossthree writes: However, the words absolute and proof do have value in reality. You can't divorce reality from science. Unless you can relate it to the Big Bang, Abiogenesis and Evolution somehow, we'll have to take your misunderstanding of science to another topic.
Alot of people come to the EVC forum seeking truth in reality. If they're seeking The Truth™, they want a cult, not EvC. “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels ------------- Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
trossthree writes: However, to reduce an open mind to just Science is simply irrational. I never said anything about "reducing" an open mind to "just" science. You demonstrated what your idea of an "open mind" is when you applauded CTD for his patently closed mind.
Now I am a Theistic Evolutionist. I suspect that most evolutionists would ask you to get off our side until you learn something about what science is. “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels ------------- Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
trossthree writes: In some cases if a theory has been rigorously tested and supported it is considered a fact(such as TOE and BIG BANG). Not quite. Evolution is a fact. Period. It can be observed, just like gravity can be observed. Evolution would be a fact even if there never was a Theory of Evolution. A theory is an explanation of a fact. The Theory of Evolution explains how the fact of evolution works. As I understand it, the Big Bang is considered to be a fact by cosmologists. I'm not sure if there is a Big Bang Theory - i.e. an explanation of how the Big Bang happened. Abiogenesis is also considered to be a fact. Once there was no life, now there is life. It must have started somehow, somewhere. We have no complete explanation yet as to how it could have happened, but we have a lot of pieces of the puzzle. We likely never will have an explanation (theory) of how it did happen, since chemicals don't leave fossil evidence. “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels ------------- Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
trossthree writes: However, all you are doing is nit picking at what I forgot to mention.... Hardly. Going from, "In some cases if a theory has been rigorously tested and supported it is considered a fact," to, "A theory is an explanation of a fact," is no nitpick. It's a fundamental misunderstanding. The facts come first. There may or may not be a theory to explain them. A theory never "becomes" a fact. “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels ------------- Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
trossthree writes: The idea of evolution started with an observation. If there was no observation of evolution, how could we even know of the idea of evolution? Evolution is a property of living things. It would still happen even if there was no "idea" of evolution. If there never were any intelligent beings to have ideas, there would still be evolution.
However, a fact is not a fact unless a observation is made. That sounds like the old tree-falls-in-the-forest koan. You can semanticize all you want about what constitutes a "fact". What's important is that the phenomenon happens whether or not anybody observes it or has any ideas about it. That's why the old creationist fallacy of "you weren't there" is so wrong. The events still happened and left traces that we can observe.
I do believe that the chemicals in fossils can bond with other chemicals which means chemicals can leave fossil evidence. Yes, it's true that chemicals can leave traces of what happened in the past - e.g. banded iron formations. I just meant that we don't have the equivalent of fossil evidence for abiogenesis. It's easy enough to recognize a trilobite or T. Rex fossil. It's a little harder to trace the ancestry of an adenine molecule.
In some cases a theory can be considered a fact and in some cases there is a fact with a theory such as abiogenesis. I think you're still missing it. A theory can be considered robust, reliable, useful, etc. but a theory and a fact are two different things. “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels ------------- Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
trossthree writes: If you believe in the dating methods then yes. First, it isn't "believe in", it's "accept". Accepting well-tested and documented methods is not "belief". It's just good thinking. Second, if you don't accept the dating methods, you have no claim to understanding anything about science because they're intertwined with every aspect of science. You can't discard the methods or the dates without throwing all of science out the window. We have a lot of dating threads here - including a particularly good one about correlations of different dating methods. By all means, take any doubts you have about dating methods over there. Your quote from jar doesn't address what I said about facts and theories at all. He was saying, I think, that a fact is a fact because it tallies with other facts. For example, the age of the earth - 4.55 billion years, give or take - is a fact because every piece of evidence we have supports it. It isn't "proven", but it's a fact. “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels ------------- Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
trossthree writes: ...read the post he was replying to.... I did. In Message 181, you said:
quote: to which jar responded in Message 182:
quote: We would call abiogenesis a fact long before we reached the 99.9999999999999999/100 threshold. As jar also said:
quote: which is why we can apply the term "fact" without a 100% confidence level being necessary. And, as I have been saying, a fact and a theory are two different things. Nowhere does jar's post suggest otherwise. “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels ------------- Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
trossthree writes: We actually talked in the chat room that is what he ment... We'll see when he gets back from his adventures. I'd be surprized if he disagrees (much) with me. And judging by your consistent/persistent misunderstandings in this thread.... “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels ------------- Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
TyberiusMax writes: The only logical reasoning is that something is outside of existence(Matter,Anti-Matter, Laws,Time,Everything) and created existance. What you're saying is that a Creator/God doesn't "exist". “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels ------------- Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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