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Author Topic:   Evolutionary superiority
Hill Billy
Member (Idle past 3462 days)
Posts: 163
From: The hills
Joined: 01-26-2008


Message 286 of 302 (456235)
02-16-2008 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by cavediver
02-16-2008 8:59 AM


Re: Science in action?
I guess I'm in over my head here cause I can't make this :

the possibility that space-time can indeed bend and curve and give rise to what we call 'expansion'.

fit with this:

No, space-time is a static entity.

See here:

If we imagine time as along the cone, with T=0 at the apex, then the circular cross-sections of the cone can be said to expand as we move through time, away from the apex.

I ask, "isn't time just a relative measurement?" As in the time it takes a planet to rotate is a day. Is time truly static? If space time bends and curves then the time it takes to get from A to B can change, rite?

To ask 'did the cone come from the apex?' is rather bizarre.
To ask 'so where did the apex come from?' is equally bizarre.
But it is perfectly valid to ask 'why is there a cone here?
I'm not sure how these questions are bizarre.To me they seem natural questions to ask. Are they bizarre cause you can't answer? Why is it valid to ask why it's here but not how it got here or from where it came?

How bout this question:

" If there is a beginning ( T=0 ) how did it begin? " Is that bizarre?


The years tell what the days never knew.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by cavediver, posted 02-16-2008 8:59 AM cavediver has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-16-2008 2:23 PM Hill Billy has not yet responded
 Message 288 by cavediver, posted 02-16-2008 3:05 PM Hill Billy has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16093
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 9.0


Message 287 of 302 (456241)
02-16-2008 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by Hill Billy
02-16-2008 1:51 PM


Re: Science in action?
Yes, that was a bit ambiguous. Try reading: "space-time can indeed bend and curve" as "space time can indeed have bends and curves in it".
This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Hill Billy, posted 02-16-2008 1:51 PM Hill Billy has not yet responded

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 1752 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 288 of 302 (456247)
02-16-2008 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by Hill Billy
02-16-2008 1:51 PM


Re: Science in action?
I guess I'm in over my head here cause I can't make this :

the possibility that space-time can indeed bend and curve and give rise to what we call 'expansion'.

fit with this:

No, space-time is a static entity.

Bad tense on my part, sorry. Should have said:

quote:
the possibility that space-time is bent and curved gives rise to what we call 'expansion'.

The cone is 'bent' and 'curved', in the sense that it is obviously not simply flat. And it is this curved shape of our cone space-time that gives rise to the expansion of the circles, as we move along the axis of the cone away from the apex.

Is time truly static?

It is space-time that is static. Time is not space-time.

I ask, "isn't time just a relative measurement?" As in the time it takes a planet to rotate is a day.

Yes, this is generally true. If you are close to the Earth, it will appear to take 24 hours to rotate. This is longest it will ever appear to rotate. But it can rotate in a much shorter time! All you have to do is go for a quick journey at close to the speed of light and come back, and you will see the Earth has made a complete revolution in less time than 24 hrs. How much less depends on the speeds you experienced on your journey. You can make the time arbitrarily small, assuming you can survive the accelearions and decelerations required to give you that speed.

So the time between two events depends upon the path you choose between those events. But the simplest path (i.e. staying with whatever you are measuring) will always give you the longest time.

If space time bends and curves then the time it takes to get from A to B can change, rite?

Not quite - if you have point A on the cone at T=4, and event B at T=6, then the maximum time between events A and B is 2, but the actual time you will experience travelling from A to B will depend upon your chosen path across the cone from A to B. The actual curviness of the space-time along your path as you travel between A and B will affect the particular time you measure between A and B.

I'm not sure how these questions are bizarre.To me they seem natural questions to ask. Are they bizarre cause you can't answer?

No, they are essentially meaningless, and missing the point.

Why is it valid to ask why it's here but not how it got here or from where it came?

Because 'how it got here' implies time, and 'from where it came' implies space. But space and time are the very things you asking about!

How bout this question:

" If there is a beginning ( T=0 ) how did it begin? "

The 'beginning' just marks one end of the time dimension. It is not the beginning of space-time. The reason for why the Universe exists is not found by looking further back in time, in the same way as looking for the reason a ship exists is not found by looking back towards the stern, although in both cases, some clues may be discerned in that direction.

Space-time is a timeless 4d entity, not a 3d object bound by time with a beginning and end in time, and this is the cause of the confusion.

Do we just believe this because we think it sounds cool? No, this is what the mathematics of Special Relativity and General Relativity tell us. As previously mentioned, they have already proved themselves the most successful theories of all time, despite how non-sensical they sound. So when they tell us something just as non-sensical about the nature of existence, we tend to put away our preconceived ideas and listen... they may just be right.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Hill Billy, posted 02-16-2008 1:51 PM Hill Billy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by Hill Billy, posted 02-16-2008 8:18 PM cavediver has not yet responded

  
Hill Billy
Member (Idle past 3462 days)
Posts: 163
From: The hills
Joined: 01-26-2008


Message 289 of 302 (456284)
02-16-2008 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by cavediver
02-16-2008 3:05 PM


Re: Science in action?
I get what yer sayin,

Yes, this is generally true. If you are close to the Earth, it will appear to take 24 hours to rotate. This is longest it will ever appear to rotate. But it can rotate in a much shorter time! All you have to do is go for a quick journey at close to the speed of light and come back, and you will see the Earth has made a complete revolution in less time than 24 hrs. How much less depends on the speeds you experienced on your journey. You can make the time arbitrarily small, assuming you can survive the accelearions and decelerations required to give you that speed.
Now, instead or a time machine lets just accelerate the rate of rotation. A day remains a day, still 24 hours, it just don't take as long to happen. This is what I was asking.

Time, as most people understand it,( if they understand it at all.) is relative to surroundings. If you decelerate all the relative motion are you not expanding time? If you accelerate all the relative motion are you not compressing time? If all the surroundings are accelerating how can the accelerations be measured?

In this manner, is not time expanding?

Like so:

Not quite - if you have point A on the cone at T=4, and event B at T=6, then the maximum time between events A and B is 2, but the actual time you will experience travelling from A to B will depend upon your chosen path across the cone from A to B. The actual curviness of the space-time along your path as you travel between A and B will affect the particular time you measure between A and B.
Cause if the universe is expanding so is the distance between A and B. No?

All this is way off topic but it was kind of a stupid topic anyway.


The years tell what the days never knew.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by cavediver, posted 02-16-2008 3:05 PM cavediver has not yet responded

  
Grizz
Member (Idle past 3579 days)
Posts: 318
Joined: 06-08-2007


Message 290 of 302 (457648)
02-24-2008 5:12 PM


I will admit those who hold a Naturalistic world view free of religious belief do tend to think of themselves as intellectually superior. Cocky, Arrogant, Condescending? At times, yes, some can come across this way. With that being said, I have never heard of a Naturalist calling for an Inquisition or a Crusade to forcibly put down those who hold differing world views.

Most religions have at their core a belief that the adherents are special and unique and they tend to elevate themselves above others. History has shown such a mind set can lead to very bad things.

On a personal level, most Christians I know are decent people who just hold a different world view. At times, however, they can come across with a superiority complex and can be very exclusive.

To give you an example of what I mean:

My Cousin's Baptist Church has an annual ski outing to Vermont and for the past 4 years I have assisted the church with Instruction. I am an avid skier and former instructor and was offered free lodging and lift tickets
for the 4 day trip in exchange for my service. My time is scarce and is devoted mostly to school, so I was really looking forward to the trip over the President's day holiday. The week before, I was told that my services would no longer be needed. When I asked why, I was gently told that some of the parents of the kids that were attending objected to my presence, as I was not a Christian and member of the church. These people all knew me as trustworthy and responsible.

Not only did this make me feel badly, it also changed my personal views on some things. I was offering a service to the group to enhance their enjoyment of a sport; I wasn't there to discuss religion. Perhaps they got tired of their attempts at converting me and that's why I was asked to come along to begin with. Who knows.


Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by Hill Billy, posted 05-26-2008 6:59 PM Grizz has not yet responded

    
Hill Billy
Member (Idle past 3462 days)
Posts: 163
From: The hills
Joined: 01-26-2008


Message 291 of 302 (468055)
05-26-2008 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by Grizz
02-24-2008 5:12 PM


Ah crap, he's back
Grizz,

This:


I will admit those who hold a Naturalistic world view free of religious belief do tend to think of themselves as intellectually superior. Cocky, Arrogant, Condescending? At times, yes, some can come across this way.

is bold.

And this

an Inquisition or a Crusade to forcibly put down those who hold differing world views.

is is not the way I would do things.

You say

Most religions have at their core a belief that the adherents are special and unique and they tend to elevate themselves above others.
but that don't make it true, however this likely is

History has shown such a mind set can lead to very bad things.

Uh ya.

On a personal level, most Christians I know are decent people

Me too.

At times, however, they can come across with a superiority complex and can be very exclusive.

Couldn't that be said about any kind of "people" ?

My Cousin's Baptist Church has an annual ski outing to Vermont and for the past 4 years I have assisted the church with Instruction. I am an avid skier and former instructor and was offered free lodging and lift tickets
for the 4 day trip in exchange for my service. My time is scarce and is devoted mostly to school, so I was really looking forward to the trip over the President's day holiday. The week before, I was told that my services would no longer be needed. When I asked why, I was gently told that some of the parents of the kids that were attending objected to my presence, as I was not a Christian and member of the church. These people all knew me as trustworthy and responsible.

Not only did this make me feel badly, it also changed my personal views on some things. I was offering a service to the group to enhance their enjoyment of a sport; I wasn't there to discuss religion. Perhaps they got tired of their attempts at converting me and that's why I was asked to come along to begin with. Who knows.

Sounds like you had a good ride for a few years, you know, free vacation and all. Now it over. Can't they offer their tickets to any one they want? Are you entitled?

Your story may reveal more of you than them. No?


The years tell what the days never knew.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by Grizz, posted 02-24-2008 5:12 PM Grizz has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by bluescat48, posted 05-26-2008 8:59 PM Hill Billy has responded
 Message 293 by Larni, posted 05-27-2008 3:56 AM Hill Billy has responded

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2298 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 292 of 302 (468078)
05-26-2008 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by Hill Billy
05-26-2008 6:59 PM


Re: Ah crap, he's back
...When I asked why, I was gently told that some of the parents of the kids that were attending objected to my presence, as I was not a Christian and member of the church....

Sounds like you had a good ride for a few years, you know, free vacation and all. Now it over. Can't they offer their tickets to any one they want? Are you entitled?

I don't think hes was complaining about the loss of the ski tickets as the prejudicial attitude of "some of the parents."


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969


This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by Hill Billy, posted 05-26-2008 6:59 PM Hill Billy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by Hill Billy, posted 05-27-2008 1:29 PM bluescat48 has not yet responded

    
Larni
Member
Posts: 3976
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 293 of 302 (468101)
05-27-2008 3:56 AM
Reply to: Message 291 by Hill Billy
05-26-2008 6:59 PM


Surely closing time?
Hillbilly writes:

Couldn't that be said about any kind of "people" ?

With this sentence you blow your entire arguement out of the water: well done.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by Hill Billy, posted 05-26-2008 6:59 PM Hill Billy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by Hill Billy, posted 05-27-2008 1:41 PM Larni has responded

    
Hill Billy
Member (Idle past 3462 days)
Posts: 163
From: The hills
Joined: 01-26-2008


Message 294 of 302 (468137)
05-27-2008 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by bluescat48
05-26-2008 8:59 PM


Re: Ah crap, he's back
Bluescat

I don't think hes was complaining about the loss of the ski tickets as the prejudicial attitude of "some of the parents."

or was he complaining about the loss of tickets because of the attitude? Regardless, this is a church group, not a random gathering. Is it so terible to be "discriminating" about who you associate with. Do you hang out with just anybody that comes around or are you more selective? If I just showed up at your door would you let me in? (I wouldn't.) (unless I had my guitar)

This is a social event for families of a common belief system. It doesn't seem completly unreasonable for some folks to wanna stick with their own kind so to speak.

Seems to me that there is a common thread amongst humans, to stick to their own kind.

Do battle with the rest.


The years tell what the days never knew.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by bluescat48, posted 05-26-2008 8:59 PM bluescat48 has not yet responded

  
Hill Billy
Member (Idle past 3462 days)
Posts: 163
From: The hills
Joined: 01-26-2008


Message 295 of 302 (468138)
05-27-2008 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by Larni
05-27-2008 3:56 AM


Went for one stayed till two
Larni,

With this sentence you blow your entire arguement out of the water: well done.

Thank you. Do you mean my argument that evolutionists feel superior? Let's see.... if all kinds of people can and do feel superior then, um, evolutionists are people right? So then it is not inaccurate to say evolutionists feel superior. So it seems in attempting to blow my arguement öut of the water" you got all wet.
Nice to talk to you again.
I'll be back soon.


The years tell what the days never knew.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by Larni, posted 05-27-2008 3:56 AM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by Larni, posted 05-27-2008 2:09 PM Hill Billy has responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3976
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 296 of 302 (468142)
05-27-2008 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by Hill Billy
05-27-2008 1:41 PM


Comedy reference alert.
Hill Billy writes:

Thank you. Do you mean my argument that evolutionists feel superior? Let's see.... if all kinds of people can and do feel superior then, um, evolutionists are people right? So then it is not inaccurate to say evolutionists feel superior. So it seems in attempting to blow my arguement öut of the water" you got all wet.

What?

:The following is to be read in the voice of Stewie Griffin gradually getting higher and higher and higher:

You got a good line in play ground logic, there. Does play ground logic do it for you? Get a kick out of play ground logic do you? Gonna apply that logic to all kinds of stuff? Got more stuff to apply that logic too? Got a few non sequitur based evaisions going on, there? Any sign of sophomore logic? Hidding away, somewhere? Maybe all alone? Waiting to come out?

So what you really should have written as your title for this rip roaring thread was: some people feel superior.

Well blimey, you may just be right.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by Hill Billy, posted 05-27-2008 1:41 PM Hill Billy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 301 by Hill Billy, posted 05-29-2008 10:59 AM Larni has not yet responded

    
VirtuousGuile
Junior Member (Idle past 3890 days)
Posts: 17
Joined: 05-28-2008


Message 297 of 302 (468364)
05-29-2008 4:46 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Modulous
01-29-2008 1:03 PM


British more Valuable than Africans then?
Naturally, possessing a high level of education has high value in the market place - those with higher education are, in general, given higher waged jobs. There is demand for higher levels of education. Though also, there is value in experience. So one might consider that in general someone with a degree and 5 years work experience is more valuable to the market than someone who dropped out of high school and sat around watching Oprah for 15 years.

So if evolutionists believe, as you claim, that they are more valuable people - who or what do they think are they more valuable to?

Westerners typically get more education higher wages than Africans. So does this mean that they are more valuable than Africans?

If the value of a human being is based on their education and wage than yes that is correct. If when asking what value people have is determined by what use and consequence they may be to you or the economy this is good for some.

Good for those work in trafficking human beings for the sex industry. notable examples being Thailand. These sex slaves should serve their masters well because they earn more.

This means that rich economies can exploit poorer economies because they are of more value; they are better than the poor?

I'm pretty sure that you do not hold any of the scenario's that I have have given as good ones to reflect a humans value. But if you treat a person as a means to an end these real, common, examples and if you believe that a persons worth is based off their economic value good things to do. Hey its pushing the economy so whos to complain. The girls? Hey they don't have a high prospect of getting an education.

My point is that value that is based on your level of education promotes injustice - If you accept that justice is that people get what is their due and that it unjust for someone to get punished for something not of their causing.

People have value because they each are unique and have dignity.
---------------------------------------------------------------
One mind less, one world less. - George Orwell

Edited by VirtuousGuile, : No reason given.

Edited by VirtuousGuile, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Modulous, posted 01-29-2008 1:03 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by Larni, posted 05-29-2008 8:24 AM VirtuousGuile has responded
 Message 300 by Modulous, posted 05-29-2008 10:10 AM VirtuousGuile has not yet responded
 Message 302 by Hill Billy, posted 05-29-2008 11:08 AM VirtuousGuile has not yet responded

    
Larni
Member
Posts: 3976
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 298 of 302 (468394)
05-29-2008 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 297 by VirtuousGuile
05-29-2008 4:46 AM


Re: British more Valuable than Africans then?
I think the point is that more educated people can make more money (in general) for themselves and the company they work for. The worker has to sell her skills and the more sort after the skills are the higher the wage (in general).

Education is often the way to aquire these skills.

This will of course promote injustice, but them's the brakes. I'm never going to get a job as a steeplejack: I'm afraid of heights. Is it an injustice that I would not be able to get a job as a steeplejack?

I think not.

The world will always throw up people more capable than others in situations where that capability can be put to good use.

The whole point of this thread is Hill Billy having a go at people he/she thinks are being snooty or using fancy words.

Now if the fancy words were (to you) everyday words you would wonder what his problem is, no?

Even if you did not understand such words you would likely just look them up, no?

No one is saying that educated people are worth more than less well educated people in moral terms: there is no suggestion that if you had 20 people and for some reason you had to kill 10 of them that you would give them a pop quiz to see who gets the chop.

The very nature of the world dictates that people who can achieve more tend to.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by VirtuousGuile, posted 05-29-2008 4:46 AM VirtuousGuile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by VirtuousGuile, posted 05-29-2008 9:08 AM Larni has not yet responded

    
VirtuousGuile
Junior Member (Idle past 3890 days)
Posts: 17
Joined: 05-28-2008


Message 299 of 302 (468403)
05-29-2008 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 298 by Larni
05-29-2008 8:24 AM


Re: British more Valuable than Africans then?
He hit a hot button. The issue is if value is determined by ones usefulness to the economy, then their value as a person is based on what they can give to the economy - or rather they have no value as a person. BTW. Those girls are typically sold or kidnapped into the sex industry under the age of 10.

Yes, this isn't an appropiate forum to discuss equilty, justice, oppurtinty, fairness and values.

Now about superiority. I have noticed a trend where people who are surrounded by like minded people, tend to be more likely to be disrespectful towards others when dealing with point of views that they disagree with.

Everyone has jargon or terms that are specialized to what they do and often even to their circle of friends.

For instants in terms of a car a stroke is the length that the piston goes up and down. Its not a magical word; it has a meaning.

I remember when my first year at University people used big fancy words. I have to admit they did impress me at first. But I learnt quickly that if someone used a term that I didn't understand to ask them what it meant. I learnt that Big words didn't mean big brain.

The very nature of the world dictates that people who can achieve more tend to.

Gee its taken measurable self control not to get into it :).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by Larni, posted 05-29-2008 8:24 AM Larni has not yet responded

    
Modulous
Member (Idle past 212 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 300 of 302 (468410)
05-29-2008 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 297 by VirtuousGuile
05-29-2008 4:46 AM


Re: British more Valuable than Africans then?
Westerners typically get more education higher wages than Africans. So does this mean that they are more valuable than Africans?

They are more valuable to some people in the market place yes - as such Westerners are also more expensive so value-for-money is sometimes to be had elsewhere...presumably in sectors that don't require the blessings of the West.

This means that rich economies can exploit poorer economies because they are of more value; they are better than the poor?

The point of my post was the last line. Whether or not someone is more valuable than another really depends on the criteria in use and the criteria in use generally depends on who is using it and when. I was refuting the claim that

I am suggesting, no stating, that evolutionists do "infer" value from differing levels of education.

by asking who do they consider themselves more valuable to? Obviously if 'evolutionists' mean 'evolutionary biologists' then we might get pragmatic answers such as 'the economy' or 'the university of X' or 'people with disease'. You might get personal answers such 'my family' or 'my husband'.

So yes, many people infer some value in education. There is nothing wrong in doing so - it can even spur people to help spread the general level of education as many scientists (not just biologists/evolution specialists). However, I don't value my fiancée less because she doesn't have a pHD since I don't pay her to work in a research lab.

The underlying direction was straightforward, inferring value in some quality (or lack thereof) does not infer 'superiority' just because the person doing the inferring also happens to have that quality. That could well be the case of course, but it isn't necessarily the case - and so the argument "Evolutionists feel superior." comes crumbling down as a special case. All people are equally vulnerable to feeling superior about having whatever qualities they think they possess that should be valued.

Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.


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