Super Evolution and the Flood

You have a point. I was being a little narrow minded thinking about God bringing the animals to the ark and closing the door, etc. Those things can't be explained naturally.

Hi Bluejay, Well, this is what AiG suggests. I am not YEC, but believe the flood was local, so millions of insects are not a concern to me. I am willing to look at it though to see if AiG has a case.21 Yet these may ye eat of every flying creeping thing that goeth upon all four, which have legs above their feet, to leap withal upon the earth;While "creeping thing" includes both reptiles and insects, in this verse it talks about just "flying creeping things". This can be distinguised from "creeping things that creep upon the earth" as described as going on the ark in Genesis 7.Gen 7:14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort."flying creeping thing" can refer to insects that fly (and can also creep of course). Grasshoppers fly (in a sense) as the jump through the air."creeping things that creep" then refers to reptiles because they don't fly but creep upon the earth.So I think there is a plausable case that insects do not have to be on the ark, or at the very least they didn't have to be maintained in cages (Noah would have to leave very little space between the bars). Did they have glass back then?As for the four legs: It does not say that they only have four legs, but "go upon all fours" when they creep. With the grasshopper, the four front legs are used for just creeping, while the primary purpose of their hind legs is leaping.

Hi Bluejay, I've heard that the region of Mesopotamia is notorious for flooding. Noah's flood, even at a local level would be the flood of all floods. I agree. Insects are a creeping thing, so if we are not talking about insects but other creeping things (such as reptiles) the qualifier is needed. In Leviticus, we are talking specifically about various types of locust. Well it has a slightly different qualifier: "of the earth". You can't say that the 90% of insects that fly are of the earth. All things that fly are always described as of the air, or heavens. I'll give you the 10%.

quote:

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23 But all other flying creeping things, which have four feet, shall be an abomination unto you. (emphasis added)

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In verse 23, it is already clear what is being talked about from the previous verses, so it is not required that the author repeat himself with the same amount of detail. OK, but can we say that grasshoppers have four legs who's primary purpose is creeping, while the other two legs are designed for leaping with creeping as a secondary use. I think this is what the author is trying to convey, and is useful as a description specific to various locusts as opposed to other six legged insects."beetle" I have no idea why this was translated as beetle. I looked this one up, and it actually refers to yet another type of locust. So, no four legged beetle. No, I don't see elephants or dinosaurs surviving on mats of vegetation - insects maybe.

In this thread we are looking at the standard YEC position to see how much superevolution is required first by looking at what constitutes a kind (inconclusive). A better way I thought was to instead look at ark capacity. I posted a link to an AiG article (AiG being a leader of the YEC movement) which discusses all these things and goes into talk about cages and maintaining them etc. It quickly became apparent that Noah's ability to maintain all these animals is a bigger obstical than ark capacity.Another side issue is if insects have to be on the ark, but that becomes irrelevant also if Noah can't maintain everything even without insects.

Hi ICANT,I appreciate your efforts with the ark design. I have always thought of the ark as having cages, and never considered otherwise. You bring up a valid point. What benefit would the cages serve? Where are the animals going to go anyway? Plus whe have already shown here that cages would be a maintenance nightmare.If God can tame the lions in the den with Daniel, He can certainly tame them in the ark so they don't pick on the lambs. A no caged ark... I like the idea!There would still be some maintenance of some sort to think about. It could be reduced by the food being stored in one area, water in another, the animals can just go there instead of being waited on while cooped up in a cage. The ark story is a miracle in itself even with a local flood, I believe that and believe it is supported in Genesis. People have a tendency to try to make something big into something even bigger.

Hi Percy, I saw nothing in the opening point about the classroom. In order for there to be a flood there has to be miracles. Does anybody think otherwise? I can't imagine anyone believing the flood as scientific but rejecting the Bible because it has miracles.So, if we are to look at superevolution after the flood (which is what this thread is about), we already have to assume miracles and a flood. If YEC's see how much evolution they have to believe, they just might abandon this idea that the earth is young.

That was not my statement. I was summarizing from the AiG article. Still, I assume they mean "kind" is equivalent for biological family in some cases, but not for humans.I don't agree with that, but believe kind is essentially the same as species. They are defined differently but the result is the same.