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Author
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Topic: What do atheists think of death?
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Recon3rd
Member (Idle past 5873 days) Posts: 35 Joined: 03-01-2008
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Message 49 of 103 (458609)
03-01-2008 8:07 AM
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Kill
I'm just wondering if the people who do not believe in a higher power like God would mind if someone killed one of their loved ones. If you would mind, why would you? Is it wrong to kill another human?
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Recon3rd
Member (Idle past 5873 days) Posts: 35 Joined: 03-01-2008
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Message 54 of 103 (459656)
03-09-2008 9:50 AM
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Reply to: Message 50 by Vacate
03-01-2008 8:43 AM
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Re: Kill
quote:
You answered the question; because they are loved ones. Do you consider it wrong even if you get to see them again?
If evolution is true and there is no God how would I see them again?
quote:
Everyone has someone who loves them.
Do they, everyone, I think not. Animals have an instinct, could be described as love, to protect their young. If a female lion kills it's prey is it wrong? No. So why is it only wrong for men not to kill?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 50 by Vacate, posted 03-01-2008 8:43 AM | | Vacate has not replied |
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Recon3rd
Member (Idle past 5873 days) Posts: 35 Joined: 03-01-2008
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Message 55 of 103 (461294)
03-24-2008 8:49 AM
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Reply to: Message 51 by bluegenes
03-01-2008 8:53 AM
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bluegenes-
As you've defined the person being lost as a "loved one", don't you think that's a rather naive question? So other than YOUR love for the person why would you mind? Does it matter if someone kills a pet YOU love, other than the fact that YOU love it? Does it matter if someone kills a chicken you don't love but love to eat?
Self-defense? What about the death penalty? Is there such a thing as justifiable warfare? Could you be asking another naive and not very well thought out question? Sorry to answer your questions with questions, but don't you think that you need to be a bit clearer about what you mean? Put what ever reason in front of the killing of another human you want, the question still remains the same, is it wrong to kill another human? If it's wrong, why? peace
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 51 by bluegenes, posted 03-01-2008 8:53 AM | | bluegenes has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 61 by bluegenes, posted 03-24-2008 2:27 PM | | Recon3rd has replied |
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Recon3rd
Member (Idle past 5873 days) Posts: 35 Joined: 03-01-2008
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Message 56 of 103 (461298)
03-24-2008 9:04 AM
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Reply to: Message 52 by onifre
03-01-2008 11:28 AM
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Re: Kill
onfire-
First to answer your question yes I would mind but, i'll ask a question to you too. Why would a disbelief in gods (Zues, Apollo, Ra, Allah) make you less likely to 'mind' if somone killed a loved one or even a coworker or your neighbor? I would think that if there is no God and we evolved from whatever, how is our life more important than another species. Why is it ok to kill an animal for sport and not a human? Is the reason you would mind if someone killed a loved one of yours, YOUR love? So it's only wrong because YOU love them? peace
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 52 by onifre, posted 03-01-2008 11:28 AM | | onifre has not replied |
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Recon3rd
Member (Idle past 5873 days) Posts: 35 Joined: 03-01-2008
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Re: Kill
Well, I would. Why wouldn't I? It hurts to lose a loved one. So other than the fact that YOU love the person it would be ok?
On the other hand, if you knew that the loved one was going to go to heaven, would you mind if someone killed her? I would miss her but i'd feel she was in a better place and at peace. As far as the killer I'm sure i'd have bitter feelings towards them but i could understand why and with that understanding i couldn't blame them. peace
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 53 by Chiroptera, posted 03-01-2008 1:43 PM | | Chiroptera has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 59 by Chiroptera, posted 03-24-2008 9:25 AM | | Recon3rd has not replied |
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Recon3rd
Member (Idle past 5873 days) Posts: 35 Joined: 03-01-2008
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Message 62 of 103 (461546)
03-26-2008 5:01 AM
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Reply to: Message 61 by bluegenes
03-24-2008 2:27 PM
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Recon said: Put what ever reason in front of the killing of another human you want, the question still remains the same, is it wrong to kill another human? If it's wrong, why?
What is wrong with killing someone who is trying to kill you in self-defense? Can't you see that "is it wrong to kill another human?" is a question to which the only reasonable answer is "it depends on the circumstances." I live in Florida where we have a 'stand your ground' law which allowed the expansion of the 'castle doctrine' to include the outside of your house or your boat, car, motorcycle, bicycle....In other words we don't have to run from thugs we can stand our ground and defend. So, I personally don't find anything wrong with killing someone in self-defense. Besides self defense what other reason do you find it ok to kill another human.
You also seem to be addressing this question to atheists, as if theists don't believe in killing other human beings, even though history and our present times show this to be absolutely wrong. Theists are remarkably good at making up reasons for killing others, and Gods are usually pretty violent and murderous beings, the God of the bible certainly being no exception. I was addressing anyone who doesn't believe in God and I asked a simple question, I didn't say a thing about atheists killing anyone. So why bring up what a theist may believe?
Atheists are probably less likely than theists to fly airplanes full of people into skyscrapers full of people because they would be less likely to be able to delude themselves that there's a reason for doing so. Less likely but still likely to be deluded
None of your questions have anything to do with the subject of this thread, which is about the attitude of atheists to life after death. This means that all of us who've replied to you have been off topic. If you want to discuss the morals of killing and how people of various philosophies decide who they can or cannot kill, then perhaps you ought to start a thread on the subject.
I believe the topic for this thread is, What do atheists think of death, so asking questions about death isn't off topic. peace
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 61 by bluegenes, posted 03-24-2008 2:27 PM | | bluegenes has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 66 by bluegenes, posted 03-26-2008 7:13 AM | | Recon3rd has not replied |
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Recon3rd
Member (Idle past 5873 days) Posts: 35 Joined: 03-01-2008
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Re: Kill
teen4christ-
To many of us, killing an animal for sport is not ok. In fact, I consider it downright immoral. But notice that it's the evangelical and other religious right that get the most kick out of sport hunting. I just find it ironic that it's always the evil liberal atheists that have fought for animal interests. To many, killing an animal for sport is ok. I have no problem with it. I just don't see the point.
If there is no God, human life is more important than other species because we say so. I'm sure when we finally make contact with another alien race, which ever race is more advance will say that its members' lives are more valuable than the other. We need not look far to see this, in fact. The Europeans did declare that the lives of white christians were more valuable than the native american heathens. Because we say so, who are we to say so? Why are humans so special and why is human life more important than other life?? When we finally make contact with an alien race Oh you mean like the little alien men people have supposedly have seen. Did you ever stop and wonder why the alien always resembles a human? If you're an evolutionist you can't believe this can you? History shows men have been killing each other as far back as history knows. Men use any excuse to kill other men.
You seem to imply that the reason it is wrong to murder another human being is because God says so. This is the mentality of a child. When I was little, my mommy forbid me to hit other kids. Back then, I couldn't understand why. But since my mommy threatened me with punishment, I never hit other kids. When I grew up, I began to realize that hitting other people was wrong in it self. I began to have principles. I guess you grew up in a white suburb all safe and secure because if you had grown up in place where you have to fight or hit others to survive it sure as hell is ok. Mommy threated you with punishment if you disobeyed her, if she had sat you down and explained why it was wrong would that have done the same thing for you or was it just the fear of the punishment? So what you learned as a child formed your principles or is it your mommy's principles that you learned?
Recon3rd, if the only reason you live a moral life is because God says so, you are effectively living like a child with a child's mentality. Real adults have principles. Real adults can see the difference between good and evil. Real moral adults don't need the threat of a vengeful God to live moral lives. Yet you needed the threat of mommy punishing you so you wouldn't hit other kids. How do you know what type of life I lead? Real adults have their own principles, not all real adults can distinguish good vs evil. Real moral adults is there such a thing when morality, as pointed out by the oncoming train, is subjective to each of us?
PS I speak as a believer. A believer in what?
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Recon3rd
Member (Idle past 5873 days) Posts: 35 Joined: 03-01-2008
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Re: Kill
Chiroptera-
How about if there is a god and we did evolve from another species? What if there is a god and we didn't evolve from another species? Why does either of these two issues affect how we view killing another human, or killing another living organism? We're talking about the atheists and evolutionists who don't believe in god. "why does either of these two issues affect how we view killing another human, or killing another living organism?"Because if we all evolved from the same organism then all life is related isn't it? If all life is related then why would it be ok to kill one form over another form? peace
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 58 by Chiroptera, posted 03-24-2008 9:22 AM | | Chiroptera has replied |
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Recon3rd
Member (Idle past 5873 days) Posts: 35 Joined: 03-01-2008
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Re: Kill
t4c-
All computers are related to each other. They came from the same engineering idea. They all are made of the same stuff. They all share the same language. And yet we place different values on them. The notion that just because two things are somehow remotely related therefore they should equal in value is rediculous. They came from the same IDEA, they are not all made of the same STUFF and they do share a common language. The different monetary value is related to the amount/quality of the hardware/software thats installed inside the box. A computer isn't a life form, if life started from one organism and blossomed into all life we see today then we are connected to that original organism of life. peace
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 69 by teen4christ, posted 03-26-2008 12:18 PM | | teen4christ has not replied |
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Recon3rd
Member (Idle past 5873 days) Posts: 35 Joined: 03-01-2008
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Re: Kill
t4c- I said; To many, killing an animal for sport is ok. I have no problem with it. I just don't see the point.
Many Christians I know usually complain that other people just don't stand up to their moral standards. Here is an example where a Christian's moral standard is considered lacking by the evil atheist side. Are you saying I'm a Christian, because I've never said I was. I don't hold that sign over my head.
Because I was a child. I was incapable of telling the difference between right and wrong. Unless you are suggesting that this child-like mentality stays with us throughout our lives, I see no point in having a vengeful God watching over our shoulders to keep us in line. If you're talking about distinguishing right from wrong as a child-like mentality, then yes it does stay with us through out our lives. If it didn't why do we, the USA has more (2 mil +) incarcerated people than any other country?
I never claimed to know. However, I do get the impression from your subtle implications that you believe morals come from belief in God. Unfortunately for you, history disagrees with you on this. No, I don't think morals come from belief in a god or god. All history shows is mans lack of morality. I said: A believer in what?
A believer in what Christ symbolizes. A believer in beyond faith belief in Christ. What does Christ symbolize to you? The believer part I don't understand what you're trying to convey. Could you expand just a bit/ peace
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 68 by teen4christ, posted 03-26-2008 12:10 PM | | teen4christ has not replied |
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Recon3rd
Member (Idle past 5873 days) Posts: 35 Joined: 03-01-2008
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Re: Kill
If all life is related then why would it be ok to kill one form over another form?
I don't understand the connection. Just because all life is related, why would that mean it isn't ok to kill one form over another form? Why does being related preclude that? If all life is related or connected because of the same organism you can't see the connection? You have a cousin, he's related to you is it ok to kill him like you would a bug? My point is what makes human life more valuable than other life forms. peace
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 65 by Chiroptera, posted 03-26-2008 6:45 AM | | Chiroptera has replied |
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Recon3rd
Member (Idle past 5873 days) Posts: 35 Joined: 03-01-2008
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Re: Kill
My point is what makes human life more valuable than other life forms.
Well, I think that most people would agree that there is nothing special about being human per se. I suspect that most people feel that humans happen to have a special quality that makes killing them wrong, as opposed to killing other species. Some people might thing that quality is being created in God's image. Others might, as you suggest, feel that being of the same species as they are makes it wrong to kill them. I suspect that most people haven't really thought about it. What would this "special quality" be that makes killing humans wrong? Also where did we get this quality from? peace
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 79 by Chiroptera, posted 03-27-2008 8:44 AM | | Chiroptera has replied |
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Recon3rd
Member (Idle past 5873 days) Posts: 35 Joined: 03-01-2008
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Re: Kill
recon3rd writes: What would this "special quality" be that makes killing humans wrong? Chiroptera writes: Different people seem to answer the question differently. Some people claim that people are created in God's image. Others would say that what makes people "special" (at least in the sense that they think killing them is wrong) is that they belong to the same species. Other people might very well have different ideas. In fact, some people have traditionally felt that humanness isn't all that important -- it was perfectly acceptable for them to kill others of different tribes or ethnicities, only taking into account the possibility of retaliation. As with most questions different people answer differently. In Creationism I can understand why people would think human life more valuable. Some say killing a human is wrong because they are human also that makes no sense, to me at least. Some people feel being human doesn't matter and it's ok to kill other humans only if there's no possibility of retaliation. One only has to look at the Palestinians and Israel's war to see retaliation isn't a factor.
recon3rd writes: Also where did we get this quality from? Chiroptera writes: Well, in the case of being made in "God's image", I don't believe that there is a god, nor that this god created anything, so the "quality" is a fictitious one. Unless it is being used metaphorically, in which case it would depend on what "God's image" means. In the case of being in the same species, the quality "comes from" an accident of birth, like the quality of you and your cousin being in the same family. Personally, I don't think it matters much where the quality "comes from". What matters is the reasoning why that person makes the distinctions that she does. Maybe her reasoning does consider "where the qualities come from," but in most cases I suspect it doesn't. OK, you don't believe in god so I have to assume you're an Atheist and I suppose an Evolutionist. So because of your beliefs that there is no god leads you to believe being a human is not a virtue. Unless the image of god is being used as a metaphor, in which case your basis for belief depends on your perception of what "God's image" means........scratching head...... Our "special quality" comes from an accident of birth? You don't think this "special quality" matters where it comes from, only the reasoning of a person. Then there, at least from your point of view, isn't a moral standard. peace
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 81 by Chiroptera, posted 03-27-2008 10:34 AM | | Chiroptera has replied |
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Recon3rd
Member (Idle past 5873 days) Posts: 35 Joined: 03-01-2008
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Message 91 of 103 (461988)
03-29-2008 7:06 AM
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Reply to: Message 89 by Taz
03-28-2008 11:19 PM
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Re: Cannabalism versus Death
True Believer writes: There's really nothing wrong with cannibalism as long as you don't kill other people for it. Sure, it's disgusting, but trust me on this when I say in desperate situation you will do what it takes to survive. By the way, when I mentioned eating other people, I wasn't talking about desperate situation. I was referring to the movie 'Ravenous'. Trust me on this you could eat a whole lot of more disgusting things than a human heart or what ever piece you'd prefer. When it comes to surviving man will do anything trying to. peace
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 89 by Taz, posted 03-28-2008 11:19 PM | | Taz has not replied |
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Recon3rd
Member (Idle past 5873 days) Posts: 35 Joined: 03-01-2008
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Message 92 of 103 (461990)
03-29-2008 7:22 AM
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Reply to: Message 87 by Larni
03-28-2008 6:44 AM
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Re: Kill
Larni writes: It looks to me like the special quality you are alluding to is the theory of mind. We recognise it in our self and others and conlude that this is important enough to preclude killing. I'm not eluding to it I was responding to another post. You may look at it that way I surely don't. By not killing another human just because another human says it's wrong doesn't cut it for me. Some humans need to be killed but all humans aren't capable of doing the killing so they whine about it while deep down their greatful for us who will do it for them.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 87 by Larni, posted 03-28-2008 6:44 AM | | Larni has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 93 by Larni, posted 03-29-2008 7:48 AM | | Recon3rd has replied |
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