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Author Topic:   What do atheists think of death?
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 103 (457663)
02-24-2008 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by fgarb
02-24-2008 4:56 PM


Good question. I'm going to respond to this comment from your first attempt that the OP:
A common train of thought among some of the atheists I know seems to be that the root cause of religion is a fear of death.
It's not particularly common among the atheist comments I read, but I have seen it. Me, I don't agree with with it. When I ceased to be a fundamentalist evangelical Christian and became an atheist, it wasn't the fear of death that troubled me. I was deeply disturbed by two things: to a lesser extent, by the thought that Ino longer accepted an absolute standard for morality, and I wasn't too sure how to handle that. But the main concern that really bothered me was the thought that it was possible that all doesn't end well, that the wicked may get away with their wickedness and die peacefully in their sleep among their ill-gotten gains, that the good may live miserably their entire lives without getting a single break. I suspect that what makes people cling to their religions, even the irrational superstitious ones, are generally far more varied and complex than merely a fear of death.
-
The topic I intended to address is "If you assume no supernatural influences, is it inevitable that when you die (pick a reasonable non-supernatural definition of 'you') you will cease to exist?"
I, too, think this is the more interesting question.
No, I do not think that a disbelief in the supernatural automatically rules out things like ghosts, life after death, fairies, ESP, or anything else that we automatically link with the supernatural. In fact, plenty of science fiction has been written with these things in mind, trying to base them on new, as yet undiscovered science.
It could very well be that our consciousness lives on after death in some manner, and perhaps all this occurs as a complex result of the laws of science that we haven't yet worked out, or due to laws whose discoveries still await us. Or maybe there is an entirely different set of laws that govern consciousness -- maybe their are two sets of laws, one that governs the natural world, and a different set that governs things like souls.
Certainly, when one looks at the different cultural traditions, in each tradition ghosts, spirits, and souls seem to follow rules. When there are definite rules being followed, a regular and predictable pattern, then this lends itself to study with the scientific method. It is entirely possible for science to study such things and work out the "laws of spirit", as it were.
The main reason I don't believe in the after life is that modern neural biology pretty much explains much of our consciousness, and there really doesn't seem to be much left for an autonomous, independent soul to do. To quote Laplace, I have no need for that hypothesis. Also, there doesn't seem to be much in the way of evidence for ghosts, spirits, souls, and an afterlife that can't be explained with ordinary psychology.
So, no, I don't think that a rejection of the supernatural means to necessarily reject the concept of an afterlife. (I'll even go so far as to say that I've never understood what "supernatural" is even supposed to mean, or what it's suppose to include.)
I think that it is important to note that the main "evidence" for an afterlife comes from various religious dogmas and conclusions based on reasoning that we now realize are irrational.

If I had a million dollars, I'd buy you a monkey.
Haven't you always wanted a monkey?
-- The Barenaked Ladies

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by fgarb, posted 02-24-2008 4:56 PM fgarb has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by fgarb, posted 02-24-2008 8:22 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 103 (457680)
02-24-2008 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by fgarb
02-24-2008 8:22 PM


I once made an argument based on the Many Worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics to argue that you will never die.

If I had a million dollars, I'd buy you a monkey.
Haven't you always wanted a monkey?
-- The Barenaked Ladies

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by fgarb, posted 02-24-2008 8:22 PM fgarb has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by BMG, posted 02-25-2008 1:49 AM Chiroptera has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 103 (457778)
02-25-2008 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Modulous
02-25-2008 10:41 AM


An interesting thought experiment to highlight your point would be teleportation.
Someone -- I believe it was Douglas Hofstadter in hos "Metamagical Themas" column in Scientific American in the '80s -- used the Star Trek transporter as an illustration of this very point.

If I had a million dollars, I'd buy you a monkey.
Haven't you always wanted a monkey?
-- The Barenaked Ladies

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Modulous, posted 02-25-2008 10:41 AM Modulous has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 103 (457797)
02-25-2008 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by cavediver
02-25-2008 3:38 PM


I've always liked free thinkers. The ones that are very dogmatic about which thoughts count as truly free are the most fun.

If I had a million dollars, I'd buy you a monkey.
Haven't you always wanted a monkey?
-- The Barenaked Ladies

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by cavediver, posted 02-25-2008 3:38 PM cavediver has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 103 (458665)
03-01-2008 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Recon3rd
03-01-2008 8:07 AM


Re: Kill
I'm just wondering if the people who do not believe in a higher power like God would mind if someone killed one of their loved ones.
Well, I would. Why wouldn't I? It hurts to lose a loved one.
On the other hand, if you knew that the loved one was going to go to heaven, would you mind if someone killed her?
-
Is it wrong to kill another human?
I dunno. Joshua didn't think so as he was conquering Canaan, so maybe it isn't.
Edited by Chiroptera, : typo

If I had a million dollars, I'd buy you a monkey.
Haven't you always wanted a monkey?
-- The Barenaked Ladies

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Recon3rd, posted 03-01-2008 8:07 AM Recon3rd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Recon3rd, posted 03-24-2008 9:20 AM Chiroptera has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 103 (461302)
03-24-2008 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Recon3rd
03-24-2008 9:04 AM


Re: Kill
I would think that if there is no God and we evolved from whatever, how is our life more important than another species.
I notice that you use the word "and" which, being a pedant about logic, that your point requires both to be true at the same time.
What about if there is no god, but we didn't evolve from other species. How does that change the answer to the question?
How about if there is a god and we did evolve from another species? What if there is a god and we didn't evolve from another species? Why does either of these two issues affect how we view killing another human, or killing another living organism?

There is a tragic flaw in our precious Constitution, and I don't know what can be done to fix it. This is it: Only nut cases want to be president. -- Kurt Vonnegut

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Recon3rd, posted 03-24-2008 9:04 AM Recon3rd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Recon3rd, posted 03-26-2008 6:09 AM Chiroptera has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 103 (461303)
03-24-2008 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Recon3rd
03-24-2008 9:20 AM


Re: Kill
So other than the fact that YOU love the person it would be ok?
Well, the question was why I would mind if a loved one was killed. I answered that question.
If you're changing the question to whether I would mind if anyone was killed, then yes, I would mind. The reason would be a bit different, and what I would do about it would depend on the circumstances of the killing (accident, deliberate, self-defense, etc.).

There is a tragic flaw in our precious Constitution, and I don't know what can be done to fix it. This is it: Only nut cases want to be president. -- Kurt Vonnegut

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Recon3rd, posted 03-24-2008 9:20 AM Recon3rd has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 65 of 103 (461553)
03-26-2008 6:45 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Recon3rd
03-26-2008 6:09 AM


Re: Kill
If all life is related then why would it be ok to kill one form over another form?
I don't understand the connection. Just because all life is related, why would that mean it isn't ok to kill one form over another form? Why does being related preclude that?

There is a tragic flaw in our precious Constitution, and I don't know what can be done to fix it. This is it: Only nut cases want to be president. -- Kurt Vonnegut

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Recon3rd, posted 03-26-2008 6:09 AM Recon3rd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Recon3rd, posted 03-27-2008 8:32 AM Chiroptera has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 103 (461708)
03-27-2008 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Recon3rd
03-27-2008 8:32 AM


Re: Kill
You have a cousin, he's related to you is it ok to kill him like you would a bug?
I don't think that being my cousin has anything to do with whether or not it's okay to kill him.
-
My point is what makes human life more valuable than other life forms.
Well, I think that most people would agree that there is nothing special about being human per se. I suspect that most people feel that humans happen to have a special quality that makes killing them wrong, as opposed to killing other species. Some people might thing that quality is being created in God's image. Others might, as you suggest, feel that being of the same species as they are makes it wrong to kill them. I suspect that most people haven't really thought about it.

There is a tragic flaw in our precious Constitution, and I don't know what can be done to fix it. This is it: Only nut cases want to be president. -- Kurt Vonnegut

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Recon3rd, posted 03-27-2008 8:32 AM Recon3rd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Recon3rd, posted 03-27-2008 8:57 AM Chiroptera has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 81 of 103 (461721)
03-27-2008 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Recon3rd
03-27-2008 8:57 AM


Re: Kill
What would this "special quality" be that makes killing humans wrong?
Different people seem to answer the question differently. Some people claim that people are created in God's image. Others would say that what makes people "special" (at least in the sense that they think killing them is wrong) is that they belong to the same species. Other people might very well have different ideas. In fact, some people have traditionally felt that humanness isn't all that important -- it was perfectly acceptable for them to kill others of different tribes or ethnicities, only taking into account the possibility of retaliation.
-
Also where did we get this quality from?
Well, in the case of being made in "God's image", I don't believe that there is a god, nor that this god created anything, so the "quality" is a fictitious one. Unless it is being used metaphorically, in which case it would depend on what "God's image" means.
In the case of being in the same species, the quality "comes from" an accident of birth, like the quality of you and your cousin being in the same family.
Personally, I don't think it matters much where the quality "comes from". What matters is the reasoning why that person makes the distinctions that she does. Maybe her reasoning does consider "where the qualities come from," but in most cases I suspect it doesn't.

There is a tragic flaw in our precious Constitution, and I don't know what can be done to fix it. This is it: Only nut cases want to be president. -- Kurt Vonnegut

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Recon3rd, posted 03-27-2008 8:57 AM Recon3rd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Recon3rd, posted 03-29-2008 6:58 AM Chiroptera has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 95 of 103 (462000)
03-29-2008 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Recon3rd
03-29-2008 6:58 AM


Re: Kill
So because of your beliefs that there is no god leads you to believe being a human is not a virtue.
I may or may not believe that being a human is a "virtue", whatever that means, but I wouldn't say that my belief in no god led me there. I suggest that if you're interested in my opinions and how I arrived at them, then you should ask me directly -- this "guessing the other person's mind" business gets tedious.
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Our "special quality" comes from an accident of birth?
You're going to have to do a better job reading my posts. If you will reread the post to which you're replying, this statement was associated with one possible "special quality" that could be associated with the prohibition against killing namely being born into the same species. Taking it out of that context renders it meaningless.
You asked what is that special quality that humans have that would make killing them wrong, and where did that special quality come from. I replied that different people would have different opinions on this. The statement to which you replied was associated with one possibility.
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You don't think this "special quality" matters where it comes from, only the reasoning of a person. Then there, at least from your point of view, isn't a moral standard.
Sure it is. Moral standards are about right and wrong. If a person has opinions about right and wrong, then that is a moral standard by definition. It doesn't matter how that person got to her opinions, or the reasoning process that is used -- if it concerns judgments about right and wrong, then it is a moral standard.
Now in this instance, I thought we were attempting to evaluate peoples' moral standards, especially in regards to its consistency. You seemed to me to be saying that you felt that the evolutionists morals were inconsistent, at least in regards it the question of whether killing other people is right or wrong. To do this, we only need to examine the premises and logical development of the framework -- we don't need to bring in any extra facts unless there is something in that person's beliefs that is contradicted by factual information from the real world.

There is a tragic flaw in our precious Constitution, and I don't know what can be done to fix it. This is it: Only nut cases want to be president. -- Kurt Vonnegut

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Recon3rd, posted 03-29-2008 6:58 AM Recon3rd has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 98 of 103 (462028)
03-29-2008 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Recon3rd
03-29-2008 6:58 AM


I lost track of my own point.
Let me sort of recap what we are saying.
I first responded to you when you made the claim that "evolutionist ethics" were inconsistent since, as you put it, everything was related and therefore it should be immoral to kill anything.
I want to repeat that there is no reason to use "relatedness" as a criterion to decide whom it is acceptable to kill and whom it is not. It is just as arbitrary a criterion as anything else one can choose.
Now some people may use degree of relatedness in deciding whom it is acceptable to kill and whom it is not. For example, tribal feuds can be based on this principle. Some people choose to use the species Homo sapiens as the limit -- it is unacceptable to kill anyone in our species, but alright to kill anything of a different species. Others will push the limit to include the higher primates -- these people, for example, are against the use of chimpanzees in medical research but don't have a problem with using rats, largely because chimpanzees are closer kin to humans than rats are.
Of course, it's pretty arbitrary where one sets the demarcation. On the other hand, the very choice of criteria to choose whom one can kill with impunity and whom it is not is arbitrary to begin with.

There is a tragic flaw in our precious Constitution, and I don't know what can be done to fix it. This is it: Only nut cases want to be president. -- Kurt Vonnegut

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Recon3rd, posted 03-29-2008 6:58 AM Recon3rd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Recon3rd, posted 03-30-2008 8:08 AM Chiroptera has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 102 of 103 (462075)
03-30-2008 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Recon3rd
03-30-2008 8:08 AM


Re: I lost track of my own point.
I was asking Evolutionists or anyone for that matter...how do they put a value on different forms of life....
This is a fair question. All you have to do is ask. The problem is that you add:
...if they don't believe in Creationism... since they say all life can be traced back to the mud bug.
You phrase the question in a way that is difficult to answer. You attempt to link together different things that have nothing to do with one another. All I'm just trying to get you to understand that. If you just ask a specific person, "Why do you think it's wrong to kill another person but all right to kill an ant," then that question can be answered. But when you continue to ask, "Why is it wrong to kill some things and not other things when we are all related," then we are going to continue to go round and round on this.
-
Of course people all have their own opinions, I'm not asking everyone I'm asking Atheists and Evolutionists.
Different atheists and different evolutionists are going to have their own opinions. If you would ask, "why do you think it's wrong to kill another human being," then that question can be answered. But if you continue to ask such a broad question like, "why do atheists think it's wrong to kill other human beings," then we are going to continue round and round.
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Of course, it's pretty arbitrary where one sets the demarcation. On the other hand, the very choice of criteria to choose whom one can kill with impunity and whom it is not is arbitrary to begin with.
Do you think it's in mans nature to kill other men for reasons other than self preservation?
Your question doesn't seem related to the quote. Can you elaborate?
Edited by Chiroptera, : made analogy more apt

There is a tragic flaw in our precious Constitution, and I don't know what can be done to fix it. This is it: Only nut cases want to be president. -- Kurt Vonnegut

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Recon3rd, posted 03-30-2008 8:08 AM Recon3rd has not replied

  
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