Thanks for the informative response.
Originally posted by john6zx
In what way do you think time is real and exists?
Modulous answer.
In the same way length is real and exists.
I know that objects are real physical things, but I thought length, width and such of that object are man made concepts. Man did not discover a physical thing existing on it's own and then labeled it length. Man gave measurement to objects. So I do not know if you are suggesting that time and length are physical things that exist or just man made concepts of measurement? From my next quote that you answered I see that you have some idea, but not quite sure. I also see that you were a bit wary about giving a wrong answer. Don’t worry about that, I am not concerned about if you can get it right according to what physicists say about time. I am more interested in what your idea of time is from what you have observed in the world around you. This is just a forum where people can freely discuss their ideas about physics and their experiences with it. So please feel free to say what is on your mind about this topic.
With that said, the reason I asked if time was a physical thing or a concept is because all of those things that we experience are either physical or conceptual. Our reality can be broken down to those real things that exist outside of our minds and those things that are real that exist in our mind. I see no other way in which something can be real to us. So when I apply that to the topic of time, I have to decide if it is a physical thing that can exist without being thought about, or is time a concept that we find real because we perceive the motion of objects and energy and get the idea of time. Do you see where I am coming from on this line of reasoning?
Originally posted by john6zx
Time is actually a consideration based on our perception of the movement of objects. There is a distance, there is a velocity of the objects travel, and that movement of that object or particle in relationship to its starting point and in relationship to its ending point is what gives us the idea of time. Time is a manifestation which has no existence beyond the idea of time brought about by the motion of objects, where an object may be either energy or matter. Time is not a thing that flows. Time does not move or cause things to move. It is this perception of motion which gives us the idea of time.
Yes, that's all very nice. However, that doesn't give us any understanding about the hows and whys of time dilation. How can different observers be observing one thing but each seeing different things happening over different time periods with the same end result? How does one explain the twin paradox? How is it, if time isn't anything but a concept of relationships/perceptions of motion, how can this concept be seemingly altered and changed depending on whether the perceiver is either strongly or weakly affected by gravity?
That's the problem, if time is not an entity how can a non-entity warp or vary?
O.K. Lets look at this. In time dilation all of the measurements are done with clocks right?
So if you want to get to the basics of this phenomenon, lets take it apart and see what exactly is involved here. First, we have to decide if time is a physical thing. If time is a physical thing, then it would be made of some form of energy either free flowing, or energy condensed into matter. So from this point has time been established as something that is physical? Yes/No?
I say no, I have yet to see any evidence that time is a thing that exists as some form of energy.
But, Lets say that you seem to think that time is still a thing that exists as something out in the universe.
O.K. lets go with that. So in order to do an experiment on time dilation we (man) would need to make some device that can measure/detect this thing we will call time. Now you are going to say that man has made such a device, it is a clock. Right?
Alright, lets take a look at this device called a clock, any clock. There is a clock on your computer, is that clock detecting the passage of time, is time motivating the change in the numbers on that computer clock?
What about a wind up clock, is that purely motivated by the presence of this thing called time? Is a wind up clock a device that detects and measures some naturally occurring energy outside of itself?
What about an atomic clock, what does it measure? We are told that atomic clocks measure the motion of particular atoms and so many vibrations or oscillations of this atom has been determined by man to equal one second. So do atomic clocks measure a thing called time or motions of some object?
They measure motion. Which is converted to a number that represents a unit of time. Right?
In fact here is a good definition of what a clock is.
Every measurement of time is based on what man decided that measurement to mean. Seconds, minutes, hours and so on are all man made. Time did not come pre-packaged in these units, man agreed on what to call these durations. Clocks measure how much of a pre-determined man made unit passed for a given motion. If something takes a minute of time, then that activity lasted for what man determined to be a minute. Time is the concept of man.
Clocks are a man made device operating as man designed it, counting off man made increments that man gave a numeric significance to, that results in a man made concept called time. Clocks are designed to give numbers, to which man assigns a significance or importance to. A clock could be considered to be a device or machine that generates a number or numbers in a regulated manner that was pre-determined by man. A clock is akin to a regulated number generator that converts mechanical, electrical, or the motion of an object to a number through pre-determined engineering of the device, and these numbers are delivered at a rate that follows the set standards that man has agreed to be universal in all such machines.
So, before you decide that time dilation and all the other things involved with time are actual phenomenon, you would have to decide if time is a physical thing, and then do clocks actually measure this thing called time.
This of course is just my viewpoint on this whole time topic, that is why I am interested in what your idea of time is. I am not trying to invalidate any thing you have to say on this subject of time, just would like to discuss the topic and really tear it apart.
I am sure you are going to mention all of the tests that were done to prove time dilation, and I am totally willing to discuss this. I just ask that you refer to a particular test so we can talk about that specific test. You can pick any test you want, if you decide that it is necessary.
I know I just wrote a lot, but the basics are:
Is time a physical thing? If so in what way does it exist?
Do clocks actually detect the presence of this thing called time?
These two questions are the basis for all things that involve the topic of time.
Thank You.
John6zx.
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