Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,912 Year: 4,169/9,624 Month: 1,040/974 Week: 367/286 Day: 10/13 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Evolutionary Theory Explains Diversity
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 29 of 160 (465575)
05-08-2008 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Marcosll
05-08-2008 6:42 AM


Re: looking at the big picture
I also have a serious problem with the Warbler link you post. Just in line 2 it reads "In central Siberia, two distinct forms of greenish warbler coexist without interbreeding, and therefore these forms can be considered distinct species."
By that logic, if a group of humans go live on some Island and don't interbreed with others in the rest of the world then they are a distinct species?
So pre Columbus, humans living in The Americas were a different species to those in the rest of the "known" world?
This doesn't follow, those in the America's were not coexisting with the 'known' world.
I agree that it is somewhat arbitrary to consider 2 coexisting populations which simply 'choose' not to interbreed as distinct species but it is a perfectly common definition under the Biological Species Concept (BSC).
There has always been a spectrum of definitions for species encompassing highly stringent definitions, relying on post-mating reproductive isolation such as genetic incompatibility, through gross morphological barriers to mating all the way to behavioural pre-mating barriers as in the Greenish Warbler example.
In the same way if there were behavioural traits which lead to there being no interbreeding between 2 populations of humans on an island then under the BSC they would be considered distinct species.
I can't take any article that makes these "distinctions" seriously.
That would mean you basically don't take any modern population genetics or behaviorally based studies of speciation seriously, nothing in fact not based on the most stringent criteria for defining species.
If it was so simple, everyone on the planet would grasp is like 2+2=4 and no one would ever question it. The fact it can't be grasped as easily means it's not simple.
Have you never heard of the Flat Earth Society?
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Marcosll, posted 05-08-2008 6:42 AM Marcosll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Marcosll, posted 05-09-2008 4:35 AM Wounded King has replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 31 of 160 (465674)
05-09-2008 5:23 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Marcosll
05-09-2008 4:35 AM


Re: looking at the big picture
Darwin, having studied the finches in the Galapagos, had concluded that they were different species, also based on the fact he didn't observe them interbreeding. Well, guess what, so many years later, it is known that they do in fact interbreed after more humans have observed them more closely.
And? What is your point? I assume you had one but I can't work out what it was, that Science is tentative and scientists are willing to revise and revisit things, that more information collected over a longer period gives us better data? I also don't believe that Darwin's classification of the finches as different species was based upon observations of interbreeding or a lack thereof. In fact I don't believe it was in fact Darwin's classification at all, as far as I can see the classification was done by John Gould based on samples brought back from the Galapagos by Darwin and other members of the Beagle's crew.
The researchers on the galapagos Finches also noted that there clearly was behavioural pre-mating isolation, but that it wasn't complete isolation.
"Random mutation" sounds complex and strange and I would place it in the same box as The Flat Earth Society.
If you really can't discriminate between routinely observed scientific phenomena and the tenets of the 'Flat Earth Society' then I'm not surprised you have trouble understanding modern evolutionary theory, but I would hesitate to place the blame on science's doorstep. Maybe rather than considering the 'sound' of the word you should read up on what it actually means and then you might find that it is in fact simple and logical.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Marcosll, posted 05-09-2008 4:35 AM Marcosll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Marcosll, posted 05-09-2008 10:57 AM Wounded King has replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 33 of 160 (465715)
05-09-2008 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Marcosll
05-09-2008 10:57 AM


Re: looking at the big picture
Well if you stop taking things out of context you'd see the point I was trying to make
In what way was that out of context? You brought up Darwin's finches as an example of some point that I simply can't see, why not explain it instead of whine?
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Marcosll, posted 05-09-2008 10:57 AM Marcosll has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024