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Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Evolutionary Theory Explains Diversity | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
interrelation Member (Idle past 5389 days) Posts: 31 From: Japan Joined: |
I think the diversities of life and the complexities of life can best be describe as interrelation and not evolution.
Interrelation is the process of all individual organism to survive which respect to its time, its surrounding and its condition. When I say"process", I mean the way how a living organism copes, reacts, interacts, behaves and responds "survive", I mean to maintain life, on the organism's maximum ability to live "time", I mean the designated era that we can verify geologically "surroundings", I mean nature (or members or parts of nature) and the common interrelated originator (CIO) besides the concerned organism or species "condition", I mean the actual state of the organism From http://www.interrelation-theory.com
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interrelation Member (Idle past 5389 days) Posts: 31 From: Japan Joined: |
Well, I came here to discuss that TOE is now already an obsolete and old theory. Maybe you did not see my web site. Look and see so that you may know.
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interrelation Member (Idle past 5389 days) Posts: 31 From: Japan Joined: |
Okay, that is good.
Thank you.
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interrelation Member (Idle past 5389 days) Posts: 31 From: Japan Joined: |
Oh thanks, for posting it here one of the mechanism. I'm preparing to post it here.
Of course, since you are following the TOE, then, you will surely say that Interrelation Theory is wrong. Anybody can say that. I can say that too to TOE. But if you will understand Interrelation Theory better is that the reason why organisms are changing is not because they are evolving by natural process with no purpose, but they are interrelating with a purpose as we see it in nature. And they are interrelating becausu they are preserving their life. The opposite of the TOE. Yes, this is the biotic preservation mechanism. And it is excatly the opposite of natural selection. And the peer review, I've writen it there in the web page. I got pity of the peer reviewer. How will he knew if my theory is right or wrong by using just only one theory that is not neutral? (I am not saying neutral theory in TOE). There is more in Interrelaton Theory than that. But thanks. Edited by interrelation, : No reason given.
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interrelation Member (Idle past 5389 days) Posts: 31 From: Japan Joined: |
Thanks for the questions
1. You mentioned a purpose figuring in your theory of interrelation. Just out of interest, where does this purpose come from?ANSWER: Well, since all living organisms have purposely protect their life, then, the most plausible explanation for that is the giver of life to them. Is it nature? Is it alien? Is it God? I called it the common interrelated originator in my Interrelation Theory. Since I am a Christian, I will assuredly say that it is God who had created life but since I can't present to you in physical form now, then, maybe I'm wrong. But the giver of life is the cause of that since it is testable and observable. And how does it influence the way organisms change?ANSWER: By simple test and observation tells me in the Interrelation Theory that organisms may loose its parts or members of its parts to change, just to gain its life. I mean, organisms life is more important part than their change, or losing some of its parts just to live. Definitely, life is main factor that greatly influenced them to change (a sacrificial change maybe, in human perception). And how does it influence the way organisms change?
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interrelation Member (Idle past 5389 days) Posts: 31 From: Japan Joined: |
"Things don't die on purpose. You had to study that; hun? I mean, it's your prime mechanism. It really needs to have a bit more lan vital if it's not to just sort of a D'ah statement."
ANSWER: Correct. Things or living organism don't die on purpose. They don't live too without purpose. That is what I've found in my experiments and my theory. Therefore, natural selection that has no meaning to live and no meaning to preserve life is false, incorrect, inhumane and unscientific.
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interrelation Member (Idle past 5389 days) Posts: 31 From: Japan Joined: |
ToE states that randomly generated variations in an organism's genetic make-up are past along to it's offspring with a greater likelihood if those variations increase the likelihood of that organism having offspring. That's kind of hard to argue with.
ANSWER: Oh that is pretty simple. If we will be using just only the natural selection to explain in TOE, then, maybe you are correct. But in real life, if you will dig further into the real world of organisms, there is another mechanism that limit its change. And in my theory, it is called the maturity sequence mechanism, MSM. In short, eventhough one species have million of years chances to change, this organism will never pass and cannot pass the maturity sequence limit of their change as set by natural process, or they will surely die. Or species A will be species A, sometimes A00001, or A21547 or A369874...but it will be still A eventhough they will have a million years. It simply means, further, that offspring of that species will be the same species with the parents.
Given enough cycles of variation/selection and the biological natural history of the Earth is pretty much explained. This is backed up with giga-pantloads of evidence.
ANSWER; Yes, we've found all evidences. But as I had told you, that evidences in TOE were just in lined according to natural selection. We had many mechanisms in the real world to be considered as I had told you in the preservation of life. But TOE had ignored them or undiscovered them. Reason? One mechanism is probably easy for them to explain.
Any theory that intends to replace it will have to say something about how modifications are passed along to future generations. Your theory fails to do that. At it's best it says that organisms will react to their environment. Lineage Continuation Mechanism (LCM) states little more then monkey see monkey do. By smacking one monkey a population of monkeys can learn to flinch when they see a stick. Agreed. How do monkeys learn to have red hair?
ANSWER: We see it in nature that modification passed in the offspring BUT it is limited modification. We need to consider many mechanisms that govern those oganisms' life and change process. We cannot simply ignored those other mechanisms and say, "Hey, here is the conclusion. Oh leave the other mechanisms, this is enough!". We cannot do that! If we would like to go to Mars, we need to consider many mechanisms and hurdles to know them or our austronauts will die!
Advantageous Properties Mechanism or APM is a form of selection. However, unlike ToE your monkeys, having derived it from the CIO*, inherently have all the possible variables available to them that are merely sorted out by behavior. This isn't a new idea. I've read it in these very pages quite often. But again, how do monkeys learn to have red hair?
ANSWER: First, monkeys don't learn to have red hairs. Since we knew that those red-hairs monkeys are still alive and did not die, then, the APM mechanism states that the CIO had given preset information for the appearance of those red hairs to the monkeys. That if the condition will be like is, then, the DNA or gene will act like this, and the outcome will be like this, is the APM mechanism. I called it in my theory the permissible interrelated change or allowable change just to preserve the life of that species. Edited by interrelation, : No reason given. Edited by interrelation, : No reason given. Edited by interrelation, : No reason given.
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interrelation Member (Idle past 5389 days) Posts: 31 From: Japan Joined: |
Okay, thanks...
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interrelation Member (Idle past 5389 days) Posts: 31 From: Japan Joined: |
Not actually, since the scientific journal that I've submitted my article for peer review had sent me e-mail that I need to send the complete manuscript. So since I had alreaday sent the manuscript, then, I had to confirm them the e-mail. For the sake of that journal, since I've promised before I submitted my work that my theory is novel, I temporarily deleted all files from my web site.
Now, you can see it again.
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interrelation Member (Idle past 5389 days) Posts: 31 From: Japan Joined: |
Really? Prove it.
Yeah, I've alreday proved it in my theory. It says that all living organisms protect their life when threatened for termination, that means, it s observable that their life has a meaning to them to live. For if not, they will be very happy to die.
Ooh, experiments! And here I just thought you were making up half-baked nonsense off the top of your head and calling it a theory, but no - you have experiments! Do please share. I would love to see these experiments. Yeah. Here are they Experiments:Experiment in plant. Take for example, two grains or seeds of mongo beans (Phaseolus aureus) . Put one seed of bean in a jar/or garden jar filled with soil (and plant the mongo bean on soil) and put it under the shade or have no sunlight. Or put it inside the closet. Let us call this jar, Pinoy 1. And do the same with the other jar. Let us call this other jar, Pinoy 2. Put Pinoy 2 in direct sunlight. Leave it for seven days. Everyday, put a little water on it to grow. While leaving the two jars, put small amount of water to grow. Leave the twe jars in seven days and you will see that Pinoy 1 had a longer stem than Pinoy 2. That means, Pinoy 1, just to preserve its life, is elongating its stem looking for a way to find sunlight. Pinoy 1 is following the biotic presrvation mechanism that I am saying. Experiment in Living AnimalPrepare one house rat or mouse and put it in a small carton box, 30 cm x 50 cm x H= 50 cm will do. Before you put the rat in that box, put 2 sheets of old newspaper as mat for the rat. But don't give it a chance to escape. Then, give the rat food to eat like cheese. Do it everyday in three consecutive days. And give this rat water too. Then, look and observe how it behaves. Do it in three days and observe for three days. The rat will be just fine though it looks scary. After three days, threat it to kill the rat. Literally, hit it with a stick. Now, look at how this rat responses. This rat is looking for cover to hide. This rat is looking for way to live by changing its body size to smaller size to fit any holes or openings. ResultsExperiment in Plant By this simple experiment, the jar, named as Pinoy 1, had a longer stem than the jar, named as Pinoy 2, which put in direct sunlight. Experiment in AnimalThe result in this simple experiment is that this rat is changing its body size to fit any holes or openings for cover, just to save its life. ConclusionBoth results in the animal's and plant's experiment tell me that the reason why those living organisms are changing is that they are following the interrelation process, by the mechanism of biotic preservation mechanism. And it is not evolution process by natural selection.
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interrelation Member (Idle past 5389 days) Posts: 31 From: Japan Joined: |
In effect, your theory predicts your theory. It's kind of cute in a Hello Kitty sort of way. I especially enjoy that animals, if they have to to save their own live, will deal with each other and the environment. By the way, I realize I may be, probably am, unfairly using your shortcoming in the language against you, but it's funny.
No, my theory predicts that we can know the common interelated originator CIO (or origin of life) if we will be using my theory. This CIO maybe alien, or nature or God. Probably, God or alien since nature is no use in explaining the preservation of life of organisms. Yeah, English is my 3rd language.
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interrelation Member (Idle past 5389 days) Posts: 31 From: Japan Joined: |
This thread is about how evolutionary theory explains diversity, which was the question in your original proposed topic. If you think you have a better theory then you need to show how your theory explains diversity better. So far all we have from you are things that are already explained by evolutionary theory, and a couple of "science fair experiments" dealing with existing organisms reacting to artificial environmental factors. This does not explain diversity. Evolution explains diversity: evolution is the change in hereditary traits in populations from generation to generation, isolate two populations in different ecologies, and evolution predicts that generation after generation they will evolve in different ways, due to the selection to live and reproduce in the different ecologies. Thus diversity occurs. First, diversity of organisms did not come from natural selection since the other mechanism in nature limits this diversification. Second, interrelation theory states that the appearance of different kinds of organisms and the appearance of diversities of organisms were the result of the interrelated action between the CIO and the timing of the earth to nature. I mean, the CIO, the giver of life, had specifically designed and put all living organisms in the designated geological era (that we knew so far) and interrelated those new organisms on the conditions and surroundings best suited for those organisms.
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interrelation Member (Idle past 5389 days) Posts: 31 From: Japan Joined: |
No. You don't prove a claim with a theory. You provide evidence for a claim with... well, evidence. Using your "theory" to prove your "theory" is circular logic and utterly redundant. Yes, I provide to you an evidence of the claim that in the preservation of life,the best and most logical mechanism is the biotic preservation mechanism since this is what we've been seeing in nature. It is not natural selection. I don't prove my theory based on my theory. That is TOE not Interrelation Theory.My theory was rooted on the evidence that I've gathered of the experiments that Ive made. Anybody can check it. It is n nature, besides, it is very simple. Of course, if you would like to ignore it, fine. But my evidence is testable and observable. I'm sorry, but this is laughable. You have proved nothing.
Yeah, it is laughable. I also laughed at the conclusion of TOE but I don'tblame those scientists or proponents of TOE. It's part of life. All you have demonstrated is that plants grow towards light. We already knew that and any averagely well educated child of ten would know that too. We know why plants grow towards light and it has nothing to do with your "biotic presrvation mechanism". Yes, I did it with purpose. Since I believe that Interrelation Theory will surelytopple TOE, then, I had to prepare any simple experiments for all students so that they could understand fully the important of life in Interrelation Theory. Since in TOE, life has no important at all, then, TOE doesn't care about this topic. But in Interrelaton Theory and in nature as we see it, life is very important. Yes, you will surely ignore the mechanism of biotic preservation mechanism (BPM),I don't care. But even so, the fact that we see it in nature and it is natural and testable is there. And this fact will never change whether you like it or not. And this is the reason why I am surprised to see that TOE had a very limited mechanisms toexplain the complexities of life. TOE should dig further and they could find this mechanism. But sad to say, TOE could not find it. Here is a satircal version of what you are doing. The theory of gravity is wrong. In fact, magic pixies push objectstowards other objects. I can prove this by experiment; watch an apple drop from a tree. If it falls toward the ground, then I have proved that pixies are pushing it. Thus, I have proved Newton and Einstein wrong and Pixie Theory correct. QED Well, I can do satirical post too to TOE. But being a professional who valued life the mostafter I found the Interrelation Theory than TOE, I'd rather waste my time thinking on how to help the human lives by giving them the most logical theory of human origin and their reason to preserve life. Do you see what you are doing? You are taking well known and well understood facts and adding unnecessary non-explanations to them. You already know the outcome of your "experiment", and you have tailored your explanation to suit it. That is not how science is supposed to work my friend. First, I don't tailored it. You observed facts and evidences. You make theory so thatyou could use it for prediction and guide for further study to the facts that you've been seeing. That is science. I've been seeing and witnessing biotic preservaton mechanism since I was a child, even before I went to school to study biology. Since I've always done those simple experiments to many animals that I've encountered to see how they behaved in their life. And one conclusion had only been around: organisms change or interrelate by the mechanism of biotic preservaton and not natural selection. Nailing the TOE on its own coffin. Don't give the rat cheese. Rats are not supposed to be eating cheese. It's not good for them. You seem to have gleaned your knowledge of biology from Tom and Jerry cartoons. Unlucky. Assuming that the rat in your experiment did not eat the cheese, but the result willbe the same in the experiment. Rat will change not because of natural selection, but by biotic preservation mechanism. You can test it many times and you will get the same results.
Can I ask; have you actually performed this experiment? Or is it still just at the mental masturbation stage? Don't hit pet rats with sticks. In most countries, this would be considered criminal. Animal experiments which involve suffering on the part of the animal usually require a license. You don't have a license. Don't hit rats with sticks. Yes, I did that experiments in my lifetime for maybe 5 or more times in rats. But somesettings were different. Rats were pests in my place, so we need to literally take them out from our closets and kitchens, backyards. And sometimes we needed to use sticks to bring them out. And the results are the same: rats will change not becuase of natural selection but because of biotic preservation. I did that experiments too to frogs, fishes, dogs, cats, chickens, crabs...many animals to find out the same result. That is the reason why I knew that Darwin and TOE proponents are wrong in their mechanism. The reason why I used rat in my experiment in my web site was that since I believe thatmany laboratories are using rats and mice. If they wanted to do some experiment, then, they could use that specimen for test. No sweat, just use the available items.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This rat is looking for way to live by changing its body size to smaller size to fit any holes or openings. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wow. You have proved that animals and plants attempt to stay alive.Pardon me if I don't call the Nobel prize committee just yet though. Plants and animals attempt to stay alive. We already knew this. TOE knew it maybe but TOE did not know the mechanism that work on whyplants and animals attempt to stay alive! Me too! I did not know it until I discovered Interrelation Theory! And the worst part of TOE is that TOE is using the wrong mechanism, i.e.natural selection in this important natural event of the living organisms! Wrong mechanism means wrong explanation, wrong explanation means wrong theory, therefore TOE is wrong! There is simply no need to try and explain this through some hokey "mechanism". Indeed, you have demonstrated no such mechanism. We need to use that mechanism in that event since we are talking about biologyand the life of organisms on how they change (interrelate) just to preseve life. That is biology....we don't study dead rocks! We study life forms and organisms. How do we know that your "mechanism" is what's making the organisms respond this way? Good question. We know it by test and experiment. In this, I've proved that I'm right.
How do we know it isn't merely that they are acting in accordance with their instincts? We don't know yet if life of an organism is an instict one. Behavior is an instictbut we don't know about life if it is instinct. And behavior must have source to behave or it will never behave at all. In the living organisms, the source of this behavior is the biotic preservation mechanism. The follow-up question will be: why animals have that instinct to live?
How do we know it isn't magic
In my Interrelation Theory, the cause of life is the common interrelated originator (CIO) sincepixies making them act this way? You haven't established cause and effect. before this organisms must form on earth, this CIO must already been existing or there will be no organisms at all.
Also, what is it about living things displaying a self-preservation instinct that you think runs counter to the Theory of Evolution? From where I'm sitting, it seems to coincide with the ToE quite-nicely-thank-you. It is the difference in mechanism use in both theories. In TOE, to preserve life,you will use natural selection. But in Interrelation Theory, to preserve life, it uses biotic preservation mechanism with clarification. But if we study in whole both theories, TOE is an incomplete since TOE had neglected time mechanism (MSM in Interrelation), behavioral mechanism (BPM in Interrelation), properties mechanism (APM in Interrelation) and population mechanism (LCM in Interrelation) that we are seeing in nature. The incompleteness of TOE to explain the diversities and complexities of lifeproves that TOE's explanation is incorrect, therefore TOE is not correct in scientific explanation, therefore TOE must be uprooted or replaced in science.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Conclusion Both results in the animal's and plant's experiment tell me that the reason why those living organisms are changing is that they are following the interrelation process, by the mechanism of biotic preservation mechanism. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No, those are just some fancy terms you have invented to describe the effect.You have nothing on the cause, nor have you challenged the ToE in any way. I am the discoverer of this new theory and new mechanisms, so I think it is my rightto use the best suitable words or terms for this theory. Since you did not yet read all the explanation in my web site, then, you will surely never know what is Interrelaton Theory. I don't blame you. Or probably, you will just ignore it. It is OK for me. Even so, the fact in nature will never change. It is Interrelaton Theory or nothing.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And it is not evolution process by natural selection. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Okay, I'm going to be frank here. It will not come across as particularly friendly,but I consider it to be for your own good. The quoted comment above betrays just how ignorant of biology you are and just howfar out of your depth you are. No-one would expect a lone rat in a box to evolve. No-one. Populations evolve, not individuals. You have badly, badly, badly misunderstood what the Theory of Evolution is saying. I'm not trying to be unkind here, but you have misunderstood it to the point where it's just laughable. I strongly suggest that you stop trying to impress people with your silly notions,go to a library and pick up a biology textbook. It's the only way you are going to learn anything. Right now, you are attempting to run before you can walk and you are only making yourself look foolish. No-one here or anywhere else is going to be impressed with your half-baked nonsense.People are just going to assume that you are a crackpot and not without reason. The only value your "theory" has is its comedy value. I understand TOE for if I don't, I will never have a nerve to fight TOE in head to head,in natural explanation clashing with natural explanation battle in science. Why should I waste my time depending a loser theory? I can and I know what is TOE's weaknesses and errors. TOE is man-made, therefore, it is not perfect. Of course, I am not a perfect too. BUT TOE is incomplete as compared to Interrelation Theory. Okay, I knew that population evolve accdg to TOE. But TOE had no mechanism in population,to support that claim from TOE. In Interrelaton Theory, it had and it is just the opposite of TOE. It is called the Lineage Continuaton Mechanism (LCM). It is very observable in nature! And the worst case for TOE is that it had no mechanism for time. that supposed to be"evolution is change in time!". But in Interrelation Theory, the "time" that TOE had been depending upon for evolution (evolution and the end-product is new species)to occur, time itself is aginst TOE! It is very observable in nature! I was really surprised too that when I've discovered these mechanisms,TOE did not know them! TOE is seeing a square object. But in reality, it is a cube. And that is Interelation Theory. Edited by interrelation, : No reason given.
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interrelation Member (Idle past 5389 days) Posts: 31 From: Japan Joined: |
First, diversity of organisms did not come from natural selection since the other mechanism in nature limits this diversification. What mechanism limits the diversification? Speciation has been observed, both in the lab, in the field and in thefossil record: this is diversification. Pelycodus: gradulastic Time mechanism actually limits or kills diversification. That means, time kills TOE.TOE must deliberately ignore time mechanism and avoid it so that evolution with respect to time must be true. Actually TOE is doing it right now. Well, it is true until Interrelation Theory found out the time mechanism in nature. Since nature has time, it must not be deliberately forgotten. The changes that we are seeing in all species are best explained as permissibleinterrelated changes (PIC). Diversification is caused by interrelation, and the changes are very limited. In Interrelation Theory, it is called allowable changes for all organisms to preserve life.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Click to enlarge Successive fossils in the Pelycodus fossil record show the gradual evolution of increased size, which can be recognized as a series of species. The coexistence of two simultaneous size trends indicates a speciation event. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here you see the trend to diversity in the changing makeup of the populationsfrom generation to generation, with a gradual trend for the whole population to consist of larger individuals, while the individuals clearly overlap in size at each level. There is a clear division of the parent population into daughter populations -a speciation event - that then evolve in different directions, increasing the diversity of the total population. This trend continues outside the realm of the graph without finding any barrierto such diversification by mutations causing variations, and by natural selection of the variations in each population generation. I understand it. But you don't understand. Since TOE had deliberately neglected orundiscovered or ignored time mechanism (and other mechanisms) in nature, you will simply arrive in the same conclusion with TOE. Incorrect conclusion by using incomplete mechanisms, that result in incorrect theory. Explanation in nature must be "cube", but since TOE had been neglecting anddeliberateley ignoring time mechanisms and etc as describe in Interrelation Theory that are observable in nature, then, the picture that TOE is presenting is "square". Now square is totally different from cube! Did you get me?
Second, interrelation theory states that the appearance of different kinds of organisms and the appearance of diversities of organisms were the result of the interrelated action between the CIO and the timing of the earth to nature. In other words, it just "happened" - organisms were just existing in their specificpopulations, and then suddenly "poof" a new species appeared? Curiously there is no evidence of this occurring. Since time mechanism limits the change and kills TOE, then, the processof evolution by natural selection is also dead. It is impossible to happen. So the best and most plausible explanation for the diversification and the originof new organisms/species is the gradual appearance of all new organisms by the process of interrelation by CIO. Why gradual? Since the earth changes gradually. So the designed and properties of that oganisms that who must live on that time/era must be interrelated to that era, and interrelated to the former organisms and interrelated to the CIO. Of course, it is not nature since natural selection is already falsified. That means, we will find similarities of species/organismsin the same geological era as we are looking now in the so called Tree of Life. It should be called now, the Tree of Interrelation of Organisms.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------- I mean, the CIO, the giver of life, had specifically designed and put all living organisms in the designated geological era (that we knew so far) and interrelated those new organisms on the conditions and surroundings best suited for those organisms. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Curiously this is only logically feasible if these "designated geological era" were constant. Instead we see the geological record has many changing aspects, and the life is observed adapting to those changing conditions, rather than dying out and being replaced "poof" by new species in the new conditions. Interestingly, your claim here is also invalidated by the pelycodus fossilrecord above: we see a gradual trend, divisions and a spreading of diversity, yet there is no sudden "poof" of new forms of organisms at different " designated geological era". If what you claim is true, there is absolutely no reason for a tree of commondescent to be visible in the fossil record (see pelycodus example) or in the genetic record. Pelycodus single-handedly shows each of your statements to be false, a ratherincredible degree of failure for your concept in explaining any evidence. No, designated geological era is not constant. This is fact. I accept it.I did not say that it is not gradual. If the earth changes gradually, then, all organisms that should appear must interrelate with it. This is Interelation Theory. The CIO knew that the earth is gradually changing, so the observable 4 mechanisms in Interrelation Theory must work hand in hand to preserve the life of all organisms on gradually changing earth. This is Interelation Theory. (i) And that is what we are looking in nature. But the change is limited as I had stated above.
A theory that doesn't explain the evidence is not a valid theory. I agree. That is why I am asking you to replace TOE now with Interrelation Theory.
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interrelation Member (Idle past 5389 days) Posts: 31 From: Japan Joined: |
Interrelation, if you are interested in disproving evolution, I would suggest you start addressing the evidence. 29+ Evidences for Macroevolution: The Scientific Case for Common Descent provides a pretty good starting point for the evidence in favor of evolution. I would suggest you address each of these points and explain why your theory explains all this evidence better. Enjoy. I am just telling the world that Interrelation Theory is better than TOE. And it happens that TOE is incomplete. I've been reading TalkOrigins 9 years ago. But I am not convinced since observable and testable facts in nature are telling different things.
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