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Author Topic:   why did an evolved life-form invent "god"?
John
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 49 (43610)
06-22-2003 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by tomwillrep
06-22-2003 10:14 AM


quote:
why did an evolved life-form that came from nothing, and evolved over time evolve into its current state "invent" a god - and make records of our relationship with god
Why do children make up invisible playmates?
quote:
- thousands of years before we "revelaed" how we were created by evolution
hmmm... because we didn't have a better idea thousands of years ago. History is full of bad ideas.
quote:
especially at a time when christianity was a huge thing in england?
Are you sure you have your chronology right? Christianity itself has only been around 2000 years, and didn't make it to England until some hundreds of years later. People had invented Gods long before that time.
quote:
also - if we evolved around the area of africa why are there no rcords there, from the african people of evolution.
Why would there be records? We didn't start recording things until 30,000 years ago or so-- if you count cave paintings as records. Written language is only, perhaps, 6000 years old. Our species has been homo sapien for, perhaps, a couple of hundred thousand years.
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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by mike the wiz, posted 06-22-2003 5:37 PM John has replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 49 (43626)
06-22-2003 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by tomwillrep
06-22-2003 11:11 AM


quote:
why did we not "know" before this time though?
Why did we not know about electromagnetism until a few hundred years ago? Why did we not know about radiation until a few hundred years ago? Why did we not know about super conductors until this century? Why did we not know about galaxies until this century?
Your question really doesn't make sense. Why SHOULD we have known?
quote:
if homo sapiens are an age old species why do we have no record of the first homo sapien
I explained this. The first of our species were around long before anyone invented writing. You can't leave a written record if you can't write.
quote:
(we have records of the first human being adam)
No we don't. We have a book that claims to be a record of the first human. Pick a religion and you'll find some such book claiming this or that person was the first human. It isn't proof. It is myth.
quote:
we have no idea until darwin (and other people) decided that we came from evolution.
Darwin didn't invent the idea of evolution. It had been around for awhile when he hit the stage. What Darwin did was formulate a workable mechanism for evolution.
quote:
darwin was christian - my view is that he was protesting against ahving christianity "drummed" into him that he rebelled and came up with this new theory.
Got any evidence? Or is this just salve for your brain?
quote:
--- the bible is a recording of events from the beginning of the earth
Sorry, bud, no it isn't. It claims to be recording from the beginning, but the Earth is far older than 6 thousand years.
quote:
IF we evolved we would have some recording, some note or some form of noteable points that would suggest how we came to be.
What are you missing? No one could write until 150,000 years plus after our species first showed up on the planet. How could anyone have recorded the process of our evolution? This would have required, even, than our pre-human ancestors kept written records. It just didn't happen that way.
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 Message 3 by tomwillrep, posted 06-22-2003 11:11 AM tomwillrep has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 49 (43642)
06-22-2003 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by tomwillrep
06-22-2003 1:03 PM


quote:
we should ahve known where we came from
Why? Without assuming the Bible to be true, why?
quote:
the story of creation has been aorund the longest out of all ideas/views/theories
You know this how? Do you know what the first idea was some hundred thousand or million years ago? Do you even know WHEN the first idea was?
quote:
those people "KNEW" where they came from for thousands of years
Yes, many cultures and peoples have 'known' where they came from. The various stories are not compatible and none have evidence.
quote:
yet if you follow evolution - no one knows where or how
Look, you are basically arguing that we should have known about evoultion from the git-go. Since we didn't know about it then, it isn't true. I really can't take this argument seriously. We didn't know about Pluto until 1930, does this make it 'untrue' now?
quote:
you say why did we not know about electro magnetism until just recently - to me that is because the earth is still relatively young (young compared to evolutionists views of millions of years old) and so those things were only recently found out with developments in technology
Of course it has to do with technological advance!!! What does that have to do with the age of the Earth? And shouldn't we have 'just known' about electromagnetism as we should have 'just known' about evolution?
quote:
technology that can be used by everyone (i can use a telescope to see stars and planets - i cannot however underatke freely, without lots and lots of evolutionary based training, conduct experiments or make calculations to see how old the world is?!)
Not true. The technology is available, though it can be expensive, but you can't blame that on evolution. But for starters, watch a river flow and measure the rate at which it cuts through rock. Then extrapolate to find out how long it would have taken to cut its present channel. The math isn't teribly complicated and the equiment is cheap. Nor do you need 'evolutionary' training to calculate the age of the Earth. All you need is geology.
quote:
the stories in the bible were passed down by word of mouth - a tradition used by many religions, many countries, etc etc - why have we therefore not heard any of these stories in order to wirte them down - why did we evolve voice boxes if not to use them?
What you are talking about is the passing of oral history over hundreds, not hundreds of thousands of years. I am sure that virtually all of our oldest records started as oral history. But passing such along for hundreds of thousands of years AND through the transition of our species from a previous one that may or may not have even been able to speak, is a different thing from passing along folk tales for 500 years.
quote:
a myth is a made up story - a legend is a story that has truth to it - therefore it is more a legend than a myth
If you wish to insist on this definition of 'legend' and then insist that the Bible qualifies, please provide evidence for this grain of truth in the creation myth.
quote:
i would request you to name other religious texts that talk about the first human - the ones i am aware of - the bible, torah and koran(spelling) all talk about adam as the first human on earth
That is because they are all based in the same tradition.
Encyclopedia Mythica
Pick a myth and read through. Here are some samples.
Africa:Abassi-- by Dr Anthony E. Smith
The creator god of the Efik (Nigeria), Abassi was instructed by his wife, Atai, to allow a human couple to settle on the Earth, but forbade them to procreate or work, for fear that they might excel Abassi in wisdom. For some time the humans observed this rule, but eventually they began to work and have children, for which Atai slew the man and his wife, and caused strife and discord between their children.
We see the first human couple on Earth.
or a Samoan creation tale...
samoa.co.uk
Aztec...
Ms Hos-McGrane's Class Web : Amsterdam, Netherlands
And a whole slew...
High Speed Internet | Business Phone | Syracuse, Utica, Oneida, Rome
... like this one:
Boshongo
(Bantu tribe of Central Africa) In the beginning there was only darkness, water, and the great god Bumba. One day Bumba, in pain from a stomachache, vomited up the sun. The sun dried up some of the water, leaving land. Still in pain, Bumba vomited up the moon, the stars, and then some animals: the leopard, the crocodile, the turtle, and, finally, some men, one of whom, Yoko Lima was white like Bumba.
or...
Apache
In the beginning nothing existed -- no earth, no sky, no sun, no moon, only darkness was everywhere. Suddenly from the darkness emerged a thin disc, one side yellow and the other side white, appearing suspended in midair. Within the disc sat a small bearded man, Creator, the One Who Lives Above. As if waking from a long nap, he rubbed his eyes and face with both hands.
When he looked into the endless darkness, light appeared above. He looked down and it became a sea of light. To the east, he created yellow streaks of dawn. To the west, tints of many colors appeared everywhere. There were also clouds of different colors.
Creator wiped his sweating face and rubbed his hands together, thrusting them downward. Behold! A shining cloud upon which sat a little girl. "Stand up and tell me where are you going," said Creator. But she did not reply. He rubbed his eyes again and offered his right hand to the Girl-Without-Parents.
You get the idea.
quote:
it came around a long time after ALL religions - why is it that the "truth" of the world only came around thousands of years after we "invented" god and religion
What does time have to do with being correct? Why do you think people in the past are more likely to have things right when, in fact, when that people in the past are more likely to be wrong about a lot of things-- like medicine, hygiene, various forms of technology.
quote:
yet if we came from africa then why do very few/if any african people-the most likely people to be closest to apes-not actually know of this ancestoral past?
This is racist and idiotic. Sorry. ALL of us are descended from the same frighteningly small bunch of people in Africa. We are all equally related to other primates. Those who stayed in Africa, remained adapted to the climate. That's all. Those who left, adapted to other climates.
quote:
im sorry - evolution is a "claim" - it is a theory - a claim-an idea-
I said nothing about evolution here. I said the Earth is older than 6k.
quote:
historically the bible can be traced backs
No. Sorry. It can't be 'traced back.' Precious little in the Bible has any evidence to support it. Names and places are mentioned, but frequently scrambled and out of sync with other evidence. But there are threads for this topic.
quote:
surely when we learnt to write we would have THEN recorded our evolutionary past - not another few thousand years after?
There you go again. We wouldn't have written it down once we learned to write because it had all happened HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF YEARS IN THE PAST and most of it PRIOR TO OUR HAVING THE ABILITY to speak.
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No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by tomwillrep, posted 06-22-2003 1:03 PM tomwillrep has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 49 (43667)
06-22-2003 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by mike the wiz
06-22-2003 5:37 PM


quote:
'Written language is only, perhaps, 6000 years old'
with this part i agree,6000 years.
get what i'm saying?

And that first language wasn't Hebrew. Did I mention that part? Get what I'm saying?
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 Message 7 by mike the wiz, posted 06-22-2003 5:37 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 49 (43690)
06-22-2003 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by tomwillrep
06-22-2003 8:54 PM


quote:
old families used to be "extended families" therefore - grandparents and great-grandparents lived with their great-grandchildren and grandchildren and children etc etc
Doesn't matter. Asgara explained the problem quite well in post #9. We are talking about 10,000 generations of humans plus at least as many generations of pre-human ancestors, not five or six.
quote:
then there is the tales past down - i hear "in the war i did.....when i was young i did......
So did I. When was the last time you heard a story, passed down only via word of mouth, about an event that happened 200 years ago? A thousand years? Ten thousand?
quote:
so surely - at some point some adapted life form must have grunted out a sentence that was passed down along the lines of "we came from apes" or "we are related to those creatures"
Why? Look, from the time we split with other apes until we first had the ability to speak thousands of generations had passed. Why would anyone know?
quote:
where is my racist comment
Right here.
african people-the most likely people to be closest to apes
quote:
i have read, been told and heard and saw "evidence" that the first homo sapiens have originated in the area close to africa
Yes. It does not follow that modern Africans are closer to apes than modern any-other-human.
quote:
i was not making any comment in any racist way
The same line has been used to defend racist ideas since about three minutes after the idea of evolution was proposed.
quote:
therefore people in that area would surely believe in the way they came to be
The land has nothing to do with it. The people living there are no closer to any pre-human ancestors than anyone else.
It is as if you believe this scenario happened within a few hundred years. It didn't. Thousands and thousands of years passed. Think of it this way. Humans have been keeping written records for 6000 years or so. Yet how much of that information do we actually have? Next to nothing. Most of it has been lost. Ask any archaeologist. Yet you expect information to be preserved in virtually pristine condition for hundreds of thousands of years without a means to record the information? We can't keep track of most of that information with writing!
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by tomwillrep, posted 06-22-2003 8:54 PM tomwillrep has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 49 (44396)
06-26-2003 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Admin
06-24-2003 9:38 AM


Re: Guideline Reminder
For what it is worth, I didn't call tomwillrep a racist. I don't think he is. I said the comment he made was racist. It was. Pick up a pro-racism tract, and you'll find the statement he made or a very close relative of it. You can go back a hundred and fifty years and more and find the same idea used to support racism. It was harsh. Sorry.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Admin, posted 06-24-2003 9:38 AM Admin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by hollygolightly, posted 06-27-2003 12:36 AM John has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 49 (45368)
07-08-2003 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Peter
07-08-2003 4:16 AM


I'd say big religions still perform this function for a lot a people-- ie. protect them from the fear of catastrophe and provide hope for assistance and support. It is psychological but reducing stress and fear is good for a community. This is religion at its best, which it rarely is. Usually, fear and stress just get redirected to 'outsiders.'
As for the money making enterprises, speaking from what I observed growing up, even the money makers provide something to clutch-- a leader to rally around. I look at it and feel disgust, as I see a big lie. The people who believe, though, don't see it that way. People I knew as a child will still whole-heartedly defend Jim Baker.
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No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Peter, posted 07-08-2003 4:16 AM Peter has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Mammuthus, posted 07-08-2003 10:21 AM John has replied
 Message 42 by Peter, posted 07-08-2003 10:42 AM John has replied
 Message 46 by DC85, posted 07-23-2003 10:33 AM John has replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 49 (45378)
07-08-2003 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Mammuthus
07-08-2003 10:21 AM


quote:
or am I confusing Baker with the tele-evangalist who got caught with the prostitute?
No confusion. That is the one. I'm not sure about the prostitute though. Another tele-evangalist was caught for that one. He was, nonetheless, banging a few gongs-- one of them that of his church secretary. He was actually tried for 'borrowing' church money and for conspiracy.
No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/religion/televangelists/jim-bakker/
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Mammuthus, posted 07-08-2003 10:21 AM Mammuthus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Mammuthus, posted 07-08-2003 10:42 AM John has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 49 (45391)
07-08-2003 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Peter
07-08-2003 10:42 AM


quote:
True ... but those features are true of any well-defined
membership group ... even families and extended families.

Absolutely. No argument. I suspect that religion itself had a good start as family groups were abstracted to include ancestors, perceived relationships, mythological ancestors, etc.
quote:
If they followed Jesus's word they would have no possesions
Well, I never said they were doing what they should be doing to follow Christ.
quote:
if they really wanted to help mankind they could sell
off enough loot to support a small country for decades.

Nor did I say they couldn't do much better things with the money raised.
quote:
Most religions exist in a 'thou shalt not...or else' culture
and claim that donations will aid your route to heaven. The other
benefits are just the hook that all good cons require.

Religion at its worst, but still functioning as a crutch for some people. I can say that confidently because I know some people for whom it is true.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Peter, posted 07-08-2003 10:42 AM Peter has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Peter, posted 07-08-2003 12:11 PM John has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 49 (47145)
07-23-2003 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by DC85
07-23-2003 10:33 AM


Where did I imply that people cannot have morals and understanding without religion?
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This message is a reply to:
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John
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 49 (47162)
07-23-2003 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by DC85
07-23-2003 8:20 PM


ummm.... maybe you should browse a few of my posts.
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This message is a reply to:
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