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Author | Topic: why did an evolved life-form invent "god"? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
John Inactive Member |
quote: Why do children make up invisible playmates?
quote: hmmm... because we didn't have a better idea thousands of years ago. History is full of bad ideas.
quote: Are you sure you have your chronology right? Christianity itself has only been around 2000 years, and didn't make it to England until some hundreds of years later. People had invented Gods long before that time.
quote: Why would there be records? We didn't start recording things until 30,000 years ago or so-- if you count cave paintings as records. Written language is only, perhaps, 6000 years old. Our species has been homo sapien for, perhaps, a couple of hundred thousand years. ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Why did we not know about electromagnetism until a few hundred years ago? Why did we not know about radiation until a few hundred years ago? Why did we not know about super conductors until this century? Why did we not know about galaxies until this century? Your question really doesn't make sense. Why SHOULD we have known?
quote: I explained this. The first of our species were around long before anyone invented writing. You can't leave a written record if you can't write.
quote: No we don't. We have a book that claims to be a record of the first human. Pick a religion and you'll find some such book claiming this or that person was the first human. It isn't proof. It is myth.
quote: Darwin didn't invent the idea of evolution. It had been around for awhile when he hit the stage. What Darwin did was formulate a workable mechanism for evolution.
quote: Got any evidence? Or is this just salve for your brain?
quote: Sorry, bud, no it isn't. It claims to be recording from the beginning, but the Earth is far older than 6 thousand years.
quote: What are you missing? No one could write until 150,000 years plus after our species first showed up on the planet. How could anyone have recorded the process of our evolution? This would have required, even, than our pre-human ancestors kept written records. It just didn't happen that way. ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Why? Without assuming the Bible to be true, why?
quote: You know this how? Do you know what the first idea was some hundred thousand or million years ago? Do you even know WHEN the first idea was?
quote: Yes, many cultures and peoples have 'known' where they came from. The various stories are not compatible and none have evidence.
quote: Look, you are basically arguing that we should have known about evoultion from the git-go. Since we didn't know about it then, it isn't true. I really can't take this argument seriously. We didn't know about Pluto until 1930, does this make it 'untrue' now?
quote: Of course it has to do with technological advance!!! What does that have to do with the age of the Earth? And shouldn't we have 'just known' about electromagnetism as we should have 'just known' about evolution?
quote: Not true. The technology is available, though it can be expensive, but you can't blame that on evolution. But for starters, watch a river flow and measure the rate at which it cuts through rock. Then extrapolate to find out how long it would have taken to cut its present channel. The math isn't teribly complicated and the equiment is cheap. Nor do you need 'evolutionary' training to calculate the age of the Earth. All you need is geology.
quote: What you are talking about is the passing of oral history over hundreds, not hundreds of thousands of years. I am sure that virtually all of our oldest records started as oral history. But passing such along for hundreds of thousands of years AND through the transition of our species from a previous one that may or may not have even been able to speak, is a different thing from passing along folk tales for 500 years.
quote: If you wish to insist on this definition of 'legend' and then insist that the Bible qualifies, please provide evidence for this grain of truth in the creation myth.
quote: That is because they are all based in the same tradition.
Encyclopedia Mythica Pick a myth and read through. Here are some samples.
Africa:Abassi-- by Dr Anthony E. Smith The creator god of the Efik (Nigeria), Abassi was instructed by his wife, Atai, to allow a human couple to settle on the Earth, but forbade them to procreate or work, for fear that they might excel Abassi in wisdom. For some time the humans observed this rule, but eventually they began to work and have children, for which Atai slew the man and his wife, and caused strife and discord between their children. We see the first human couple on Earth. or a Samoan creation tale...
samoa.co.uk Aztec...
Ms Hos-McGrane's Class Web : Amsterdam, Netherlands And a whole slew...
High Speed Internet | Business Phone | Syracuse, Utica, Oneida, Rome ... like this one:
Boshongo (Bantu tribe of Central Africa) In the beginning there was only darkness, water, and the great god Bumba. One day Bumba, in pain from a stomachache, vomited up the sun. The sun dried up some of the water, leaving land. Still in pain, Bumba vomited up the moon, the stars, and then some animals: the leopard, the crocodile, the turtle, and, finally, some men, one of whom, Yoko Lima was white like Bumba. or...
Apache In the beginning nothing existed -- no earth, no sky, no sun, no moon, only darkness was everywhere. Suddenly from the darkness emerged a thin disc, one side yellow and the other side white, appearing suspended in midair. Within the disc sat a small bearded man, Creator, the One Who Lives Above. As if waking from a long nap, he rubbed his eyes and face with both hands. When he looked into the endless darkness, light appeared above. He looked down and it became a sea of light. To the east, he created yellow streaks of dawn. To the west, tints of many colors appeared everywhere. There were also clouds of different colors. Creator wiped his sweating face and rubbed his hands together, thrusting them downward. Behold! A shining cloud upon which sat a little girl. "Stand up and tell me where are you going," said Creator. But she did not reply. He rubbed his eyes again and offered his right hand to the Girl-Without-Parents. You get the idea.
quote: What does time have to do with being correct? Why do you think people in the past are more likely to have things right when, in fact, when that people in the past are more likely to be wrong about a lot of things-- like medicine, hygiene, various forms of technology.
quote: This is racist and idiotic. Sorry. ALL of us are descended from the same frighteningly small bunch of people in Africa. We are all equally related to other primates. Those who stayed in Africa, remained adapted to the climate. That's all. Those who left, adapted to other climates.
quote: I said nothing about evolution here. I said the Earth is older than 6k.
quote: No. Sorry. It can't be 'traced back.' Precious little in the Bible has any evidence to support it. Names and places are mentioned, but frequently scrambled and out of sync with other evidence. But there are threads for this topic.
quote: There you go again. We wouldn't have written it down once we learned to write because it had all happened HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF YEARS IN THE PAST and most of it PRIOR TO OUR HAVING THE ABILITY to speak. ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: And that first language wasn't Hebrew. Did I mention that part? Get what I'm saying? ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Doesn't matter. Asgara explained the problem quite well in post #9. We are talking about 10,000 generations of humans plus at least as many generations of pre-human ancestors, not five or six.
quote: So did I. When was the last time you heard a story, passed down only via word of mouth, about an event that happened 200 years ago? A thousand years? Ten thousand?
quote: Why? Look, from the time we split with other apes until we first had the ability to speak thousands of generations had passed. Why would anyone know?
quote: Right here.
african people-the most likely people to be closest to apes quote: Yes. It does not follow that modern Africans are closer to apes than modern any-other-human.
quote: The same line has been used to defend racist ideas since about three minutes after the idea of evolution was proposed.
quote: The land has nothing to do with it. The people living there are no closer to any pre-human ancestors than anyone else. It is as if you believe this scenario happened within a few hundred years. It didn't. Thousands and thousands of years passed. Think of it this way. Humans have been keeping written records for 6000 years or so. Yet how much of that information do we actually have? Next to nothing. Most of it has been lost. Ask any archaeologist. Yet you expect information to be preserved in virtually pristine condition for hundreds of thousands of years without a means to record the information? We can't keep track of most of that information with writing! ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
For what it is worth, I didn't call tomwillrep a racist. I don't think he is. I said the comment he made was racist. It was. Pick up a pro-racism tract, and you'll find the statement he made or a very close relative of it. You can go back a hundred and fifty years and more and find the same idea used to support racism. It was harsh. Sorry.
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John Inactive Member |
I'd say big religions still perform this function for a lot a people-- ie. protect them from the fear of catastrophe and provide hope for assistance and support. It is psychological but reducing stress and fear is good for a community. This is religion at its best, which it rarely is. Usually, fear and stress just get redirected to 'outsiders.'
As for the money making enterprises, speaking from what I observed growing up, even the money makers provide something to clutch-- a leader to rally around. I look at it and feel disgust, as I see a big lie. The people who believe, though, don't see it that way. People I knew as a child will still whole-heartedly defend Jim Baker. ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: No confusion. That is the one. I'm not sure about the prostitute though. Another tele-evangalist was caught for that one. He was, nonetheless, banging a few gongs-- one of them that of his church secretary. He was actually tried for 'borrowing' church money and for conspiracy.
No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/religion/televangelists/jim-bakker/ ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Absolutely. No argument. I suspect that religion itself had a good start as family groups were abstracted to include ancestors, perceived relationships, mythological ancestors, etc.
quote: Well, I never said they were doing what they should be doing to follow Christ.
quote: Nor did I say they couldn't do much better things with the money raised.
quote: Religion at its worst, but still functioning as a crutch for some people. I can say that confidently because I know some people for whom it is true. ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
Where did I imply that people cannot have morals and understanding without religion?
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John Inactive Member |
ummm.... maybe you should browse a few of my posts.
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