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Author | Topic: Simultaneous appearance of written language and common man | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
kuresu Member (Idle past 2543 days) Posts: 2544 From: boulder, colorado Joined: |
this is from the same account that posted this:
Obit Which stated that you had died. So, the options are:
What gives?Oh, and I'll copy this post to the Obit thread as well.
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Jon Inactive Member |
it is all but universally accepted among scholars that the Sumerian cuneiform script of c. 3000 BC is the earliest form of writing. From exactly where did you get this? This line of text does not appear in ANY of the pages to which I linked. Now, I am going to read the source you got this from, but you will still need to provide a link to it for everyone else. And SHAME on you for plagiarizing! the last 6,000 years is nothing more then the blink of an eye, yet it seems this is where our 'humanity' began I thought you were of the opinion that humanity begins with writing. Yet, if I am understanding you right. We have a modern date of about 2000 A.D., humanity began 6000 years ago, and the earliest writing appeared in 3000 B.C. The math looks like this then: 2000 A.D. -6000 yrs = ~4000 B.C. for appearance of 'humanity'3000 B.C. for appearance of writing. For a difference of: 1000 years! So, considering their dissimilar date of appearance”basing this on your dates”, what is it that writing has to do with the quality of being human? And what of societies that to this day have no writing system?
the history of human writing is very new, especially if you take prehistory into consideration or believe that humans have been evolving fom millions of years on this planet You need to stop confusing new/old with sudden/gradual. Furthermore, if your premise for support of Creationism (the history of human writing is very new) requires that we look at it from a perspective completely opposed to Creationism (humans have been evolving fom millions of years on this planet), I can hardly see how it helps your ends meet. You've been Gremled!
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Kapyong Member (Idle past 3472 days) Posts: 344 Joined: |
Gday,
Peg writes: so meticulously in fact that we know the exact year of the flood, of Adams creation, of the exodus from egypt ect Really? Please tell us the exact years of :* the flood * Adam's creation * the exodus Do all believers agree with your exact dates ? K. (D'oh, I should've read the whole thread first, sorry Huntard.) Edited by Kapyong, : No reason given.
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anglagard Member (Idle past 866 days) Posts: 2339 From: Socorro, New Mexico USA Joined: |
Peg writes: i dont need to bob and weave..im more then happy to address this chronology is worked out by counting the time between major events... im giving only the 3 you've asked for here...there are other events that also add to biblical chronology. Exodus from Egypt - 1513 BCETwo chronological statements harmonize to produce this date. Solomon began the building of the temple in his fourth year of kingship (1034 B.C.E.), and this is stated at 1 Kings 6:1 to be “the four hundred and eightieth year” from the time of the Exodus (1513 B.C.E.). the flood - 2370 B.C.EMany years were spent building the ark, and they went into it “in the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month (Oct-NOv), on the seventeenth day of the month.” Ge 7:11 Adams creation - 4026 B.C.EAdam lived 930 years, Ge 5:3-32 gives a line of decent from Adam, to the start of the flood (when noah was 600yrs old) there were a total of 1,656 years. im happy to clarify anything here with more detailed information. Thanks. I don't mean to be rude but you would not believe how difficult it is to get a Biblical literalist to provide exact dates even when they claim to know what they are. Your courage in this matter is noted. Now you do realize that these dates conflict with a lot of evidence from several fields so be prepared for some serious objections from many professionals, myself included if I feel anything is overlooked. Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2325 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
Please tell us the exact years of :
He did this in Message 33.
* the flood * Adam's creation * the exodus Peg writes: Exodus from Egypt - 1513 BCETwo chronological statements harmonize to produce this date. Solomon began the building of the temple in his fourth year of kingship (1034 B.C.E.), and this is stated at 1 Kings 6:1 to be “the four hundred and eightieth year” from the time of the Exodus (1513 B.C.E.). the flood - 2370 B.C.EMany years were spent building the ark, and they went into it “in the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month (Oct-NOv), on the seventeenth day of the month.” Ge 7:11 Adams creation - 4026 B.C.EAdam lived 930 years, Ge 5:3-32 gives a line of decent from Adam, to the start of the flood (when noah was 600yrs old) there were a total of 1,656 years. Hope that helped. I hunt for the truth
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Tanndarr Member (Idle past 5212 days) Posts: 68 Joined: |
Tanndarr writes: We see several writing methods evolve simultaneously at different times in different places from their local proto-writing methods. We do not see their proto-writing stopped to be replaced by a new God given writing system; nor do we see all systems developing from a single master system distributed by the wandering nations after Babel yes thats right we do see that because when the languages became confused, each group went off in their own direction and formulated their own writing systems hence why the sudden appearance of various types and styles of writting. You fail. You lose. Your position is false. You are telling stories that ignore the plain evidence in front of your face. Can I make it any more clear to you? If you look simply at your own assertions you can see the contradictions in them which no amount of hand-waving at outside evidence will ever fix. Your own arguments are poorly formed and inconsistent, until you fix those you shouldn't try to argue it with others. For everyone else: thank you for all the other excellent posts. I'm really an amateur at this stuff. I've lurked at EvC for a long time and have learned a lot from all of you. If it's possible I'd still like to focus this topic on the correlation (or lack thereof) between the appearance of modern man and writing.
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Jon Inactive Member |
Now now, there is no need to be so harsh. We are all here for to understand one another, and I think that such ends are met better when we do not put one another down no matter how ridiculous are their opinions. Sometimes we can get so in our ways that we do not see where we've erred until someone pushes our nose in it. So, instead of simply telling poor Peg that she has failed, perhaps you could tell her how/where. That is, you would be better to find the source of the miscommunication rather than to jump to playing the blame game.
To start, you state:
You've failed to support your assertion that modern humans arose at the same time as written language when repeatedly asked to do so. I wasn't asking for bible stories and quotes, I was asking you to point to evidence that supported your position. The miscommunication here is that Peg's very definition of 'modern humans' is, as Rahvin pointed out (Message 4): "those organisms which are biologically identical to currently living humans and possess written language." You ask Peg to prove that two separate items - modern humans & writing - arose at the same time. Peg finds this impossible, since her definitions/understandings do not have these items as separate. She does not state their co-arrival on Earth as an assertion to be backed, but as a simple definition in which, as in all definitions, each and every part is necessary for a complete definition. Accepting her definition, she cannot see how there is anything to prove. You should be trying to show how her definition is not acceptable, not how her timetables are wrong. So, let's start off anew on a different foot. We will ask Peg to show why writing is a necessary piece of the definition of "humanness". We will point to the fact that humans exist the world over who only speak languages with no written forms. We will show how ancient cultures, such as the Inca, were very functional and operable human societies sans writing. Once these steps have been walked through, we can move to the timetables. Sound like a plan to you? It does to me. Jon You've been Gremled!
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4046 Joined: Member Rating: 7.6 |
So, let's start off anew on a different foot. We will ask Peg to show why writing is a necessary piece of the definition of "humanness". We will point to the fact that humans exist the world over who only speak languages with no written forms. We will show how ancient cultures, such as the Inca, were very functional and operable human societies sans writing. Once these steps have been walked through, we can move to the timetables. It's far easier than that. By Peg's definition, young children and illiterate adults do not qualify as "modern man," because they do not possess written language. This should be sufficient to show that her definition is absurd on its face - certainly people don't "become" human only when they master the written word! It's ironic - Peg's definition of humanity would fly in the face of nearly every Creationist anti-abortion argument I;ve ever heard of and even open the door to infanticide, since after all, until they can read and write, they aren't human. The definition of "modern man" should remain a biological definition, just as are all other definitions of other species.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4959 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
i was sure it was the 2nd link, but when i checked it wasnt there but was one of the links i followed from that page, so i apologise for the confusion.
It was actually here Vina symbols - Wikipedia i wasn't plagiarizing ... not deliberately anyway lol Jon writes: 2000 A.D. -6000 yrs = ~4000 B.C. for appearance of 'humanity'3000 B.C. for appearance of writing. For a difference of: 1000 years! So, considering their dissimilar date of appearance”basing this on your dates”, what is it that writing has to do with the quality of being human? And what of societies that to this day have no writing system? And this takes us back to your 2nd Link about proto writing of 4,000BCE ...and to the link for the vinca symbols that i posted above. Perhaps there is an even older writing that has not been discovered yet. Moses got his information about the pre flood world from written records as can be seen by his comment... “This is the book of the generations of Adam.” The use of the word book implies writing. ”Adam’s written history’ (Gen. 2:5 to 5:2)
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Peg Member (Idle past 4959 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
please dont twist my words into something absurd
i was not saying that at all please name me one animal with a language the doesnt consist of grunts and growls... one animal that writes its history in stone ... one animal that has anything remotely similar to human language and writing humans of today are unique to this ability and even those who cannot read or write can still speak a language and can 'learn' to read and write it Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4959 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
anglagard writes: Now you do realize that these dates conflict with a lot of evidence from several fields so be prepared for some serious objections from many professionals, myself included if I feel anything is overlooked. i appreciate that and fully expect it. Please keep in mind that i have no external evidence for these dates...it is purely based on biblical chronology so if i was a jew and wanted to know when the exodus was for instance, i'd grab my old testament and use the biblical chronology to work it out.
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fallacycop Member (Idle past 5550 days) Posts: 692 From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil Joined: |
“This is the book of the generations of Adam.” The use of the word book implies writing. ”Adam’s written history’ (Gen. 2:5 to 5:2) Oh... If it says so in the Bible, then it must be true...
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4046 Joined: Member Rating: 7.6 |
please dont twist my words into something absurd i was not saying that at all please name me one animal with a language the doesnt consist of grunts and growls... one animal that writes its history in stone ... one animal that has anything remotely similar to human language and writing humans of today are unique to this ability and even those who cannot read or write can still speak a language and can 'learn' to read and write it So now you're shifting the goalposts to all language, rather than simply the written word? How nice. Technically, human speech is no different from "grunts and growls." Bees communicate by dancing - not all that different from human sign language. Ants communicate via scent. And those are insects. Whales sing songs to communicate over long distances. Communication is not unique to humans, and some animal communication is more complex than you would think. And what about mentally disabled individuals? They cannot learn to read and write - some can't even speak. By your definition, they aren't "modern man." I'm not twisting your words, Peg - your position really is that absurd.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4959 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
Jon writes: You should be trying to show how her definition is not acceptable, not how her timetables are wrong. So, let's start off anew on a different foot. We will ask Peg to show why writing is a necessary piece of the definition of "humanness". We will point to the fact that humans exist the world over who only speak languages with no written forms. We will show how ancient cultures, such as the Inca, were very functional and operable human societies sans writing. Once these steps have been walked through, we can move to the timetables. thanks Jon, this is precisely why i'm here... to challenge my own beliefs and hopefully learn something in the process this gives me exactly what i need to study cheers.
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Brian Member (Idle past 4989 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
to challenge my own beliefs and hopefully learn something in the process You are lacking one vital thing though, an open mind. You will never learn anything until you approach these subjects from more than one angle. I know complete objectivity is impossible to achieve, but I feel you are far too determined to maintain Bible accuracy that you MAY never seriously challenge anything you believe to be true. Take this dating thing you have about the Exodus as an example, you simply accept the Old Testament chronology without giving a single thought of how this event would fit in with what is already known about the ancient near east. Archaeologists have been excavating in Egypt, mesopotamia, Palestine, Syria etc. for over 150 years, there is an abundance of evidence that has allowed us to build up a pretty sound background history of the ANE, so why don't you study that and see how the Bible chronology fits with the known evidence? The father of biblical archaeology was a conservative Christian called William Albright, although technically he wasn't an archaeologist, he was responsible for excavating and gathering an enormous amount of evidence that he simply linked to the biblical accounts. However, such was the weight of the evidence against the biblical accounts of events such as the Exodus, the Conquest, and the period of the Judges, Albright had to change his stance as more evidence was incovered. Albright had to reinterpret the Bible to fit the archaeological evidence, such was the weight of evidence against many biblical accounts. Have you considered external evidence at all for the dates you give? If I said to you that there is zero evidence for the Exodus, and zero evidence for King Solomon and his Temple, would you be able to show me that I am incorrect? If you aren't, then you should really learn a valuable lesson from this. If you seriously are here to learn, then you need to be more critical of the biblical accounts or all you will learn is that you don't really know very much. If there's any help I can give you regarding the archaeology of the ancient near east feeel free to ask, or if you would like a reading list I am happy to provide it.
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