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Author Topic:   What is a Theory?
Ambercab
Inactive Junior Member


Message 194 of 249 (494606)
01-17-2009 5:48 AM


I like the notion (starting with post 169) of debating whether water boils at 100C. Celsius invented a scale by saying that he would make the freezing point of water 100 and the boiling point 0. He didn’t discover it, there is no theory. He simply invented a definition. The scale was reversed after his death to make the one that we know today. (In modern usage, the Celsius scale is linked to the kelvin, which measures absolute temperatures, and the definition has become rather more complicated.)

There is no harm in doubt and skepticism, for it is through these that new discoveries are made - Richard Feynman

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by RAZD, posted 01-17-2009 9:51 AM Ambercab has not replied

  
Ambercab
Inactive Junior Member


Message 195 of 249 (494607)
01-17-2009 6:15 AM


There are perhaps four classes of idea where some kind of discovery, as opposed to invention or definition, is involved:
1. An idea that can be, but has not yet been tested.
2. An idea that has been tested as rigorously as possible and has passed the tests.
3. An idea that has not passed the tests.
4. An idea that cannot be tested.
In theology the test is based on scripture, and in philosophy on logic. The emphasis in both is usually on proof.
In science the test is based on objective reality, on how the world works, and the emphasis is usually on falsification rather than proof because it is really hard to prove anything at all about the world. The first type of idea is strictly called a thesis. String Theory is, at best, a thesis, but was misnamed to make it sound cool. Most ideas end up in the third group as garbage. The last type of idea, one that cannot be tested, is known as ”not even wrong’.
A good scientist will try to falsify her idea before publishing it, and will point out as many ways as possible for other people to do so. Darwin did this. He said that he could be proved wrong if we found just one species, or even a single part of an animal or plant, that can’t be explained by his idea. After 150 years and lots of attempts, no one has been able to find one. For such a counter-intuitive idea to last so long in the face of extreme skepticism by many generations of Christians, amongst others, makes it one of the strongest in science.
We can never say for sure that a scientific theory is true, because we don’t have a handbook for the world. We wouldn’t need science if we did. But as the number of tested theories grows, we can be a little more certain about them, because they give the right answers and all have to work together.
Many of the posts on this topic are about the meaning of words rather than the value of ideas. Modern theologians, and certainly scientists, are often much more pragmatic, so here’s a thought experiment: Suppose that your partner fell seriously ill. Would you seek the aid of scientifically trained doctors and scientific medicine? Of course. Would you pray your heart out? Of course. You would try everything that might work. But would it help to debate the meaning of life and whether we can truly ever know anything? Probably not.
So why do it now?

There is no harm in doubt and skepticism, for it is through these that new discoveries are made - Richard Feynman

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by shalamabobbi, posted 01-17-2009 2:54 PM Ambercab has replied

  
Ambercab
Inactive Junior Member


Message 200 of 249 (494753)
01-18-2009 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 199 by shalamabobbi
01-17-2009 2:54 PM


Re: theological theory based upon scripture?
I said:
In theology the test is based on scripture, and in philosophy on logic.
On your first point, statistically we could probably prove any proposition from a scripture, because they tend to be long books containing lots of words. A pedantic example from the bible: Jesus says "whoever is not against you is for you" in Luke 9:50 and "he who is not with me is against me” in Luke 11:23. One statement is unifying and the other divisive. We need something other than logic, such as context and what we believe, to choose between them in a particular case.
OK, I should have said that the test is based on 'interpretation of scripture' instead of just 'scripture'. Hopefully that deals with your second point - without any scripture, Adam has nothing to interpret.
Let me make a shameful admission: There are examples in science (including math?) where an idea has developed because of its beauty alone, and the logic filled-in later. It’s intriguing, and useful, that theories can be stated in math or simple logic, but I’d rather trust objective reality any day. Thanks, I feel much better now.
(Thanks RAZD for the welcome and posting tips, I had wondered how to do the snazzy graphics).

There is no harm in doubt and skepticism, for it is through these that new discoveries are made - Richard Feynman

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by shalamabobbi, posted 01-17-2009 2:54 PM shalamabobbi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by shalamabobbi, posted 01-18-2009 6:39 PM Ambercab has not replied

  
Ambercab
Inactive Junior Member


Message 209 of 249 (495965)
01-25-2009 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by prophet
01-24-2009 10:20 PM


Re: Standards (Prophet, from the Ark Volume thread)
A theory: Theology and baseball do not exist until invented by humans.
That is scientific because it can be falsified by finding pre- or non-human evidence of baseball or theology.
Another theory: There is always a trade-off with the truth - a theory that has passed tests against reality can only ever be tentatively true (we may find buffalo playing baseball tomorrow), and an eternal truth can’t be tested against reality (”God is eternal’ is only true if you believe it).
Yet another theory: Truth only exists in the human mind .
Is that true?

There is no harm in doubt and skepticism, for it is through these that new discoveries are made - Richard Feynman

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by prophet, posted 01-24-2009 10:20 PM prophet has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by prophet, posted 01-26-2009 3:21 PM Ambercab has not replied

  
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