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Member (Idle past 4476 days) Posts: 88 From: Katrinaville USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Did any author in the New Testament actually know Jesus? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Peg Member (Idle past 4960 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
ah no problem
im sorry, i should have expanded on it a bit more myself. It was actually the apostles who related the prophecy to Jesus ... Notice Vs 17 (bolded) Mathew 2:16"Then Herod, seeing he had been outwitted by the astrologers, fell into a great rage, and he sent out and had all the boys in Beth”le·hem and in all its districts done away with, from two years of age and under, according to the time that he had carefully ascertained from the astrologers. 17Then that was fulfilled which was spoken through Jeremiah the prophet, saying: 18“A voice was heard in Ra”mah, weeping and much wailing; it was Rachel weeping for her children, and she was unwilling to take comfort, because they are no more.”
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Peg Member (Idle past 4960 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
Huntard writes: The writers of the gospels weren't eyewitnesses quote: These are peters words as penned by Luke. Peter was most certainly an eye witness
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Peg Member (Idle past 4960 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
i dont think it was overlooked by everybody at all
The christian congregation were organized and the teachings were not just ramblings by individuals. the teachings were unified. they had a governing body made up of apostles and older men who would discussed these matters.. mathews account was accepted by the other apostles therefore it must be assumed that they agreed with the prophecies application.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4960 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
[qs-8upwidit2]You are confusing eye witness and what somebody wrote about an eye witness. [/qs]
how can you say Peter was not an eye witness? he was one of Jesus 12 apostles. Luke wrote his gospel directly from the word of Peter who was most certainly an eye witness. By what you are saying, all media that reports on any event is heresay and not to be trusted. Thank goodness we have television hey.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4960 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
grannymagda writes: If Josephus genuinely believed that Jesus rose from the dead, why did he not convert to the fledgling Christianity? the point was, did josephus confirm the existence of Jesus or not? clearly he did. It doesnt matter whether he believed in him or not (obviously he didnt) he didnt believe him, just as the majority of the jews did not believe in him. but it wasnt really the point.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4960 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
Brian writes: If Jesus was the Messiah, we wouldn't need a few lines in Josephus to inform us, it would be abundantly evidenced. Israel would have been set free from her enemies and the Throne of God set up in Jerusalem. Not only did this not happen in Jesus' time, but shortly after His death Israel was even more suppressed by her enemies! just like the jews in jesus day, your understanding of what the messiah's purpose is wrong.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4960 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
Bluescat48 writes: But where is your evidence that Matthew wrote Matthew.Where is the original manuscript in Matthew's handwriting and some other sample of his handwriting, ie a tax document handwriting analysis lol im sure you know that would be impossible. The way we know that he wrote the book is because the earliest church historians are all unanimous about his authorship. There is a line of eyewitness testimony to the fact that Mathew was the writer of the gospel and historians such as Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Origen and Tertulian all testify to this fact.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4960 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
Huntard, you do realise that if anything that was writen in the gospels was infactual, the followers of christ...who were eyewitnesses to many of jesus miracles... would be able to refute it
but non of the eye witnesses refuted any of the writings. If the christians wrote anything that was untrue, it would have been a well publicized forgery.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4960 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
you think any ruler would have such an event recorded?
i cant imagine any ruler in their right mind would make a written record of such an event.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4960 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
8uptwidit2 writes: Let's assume that the earliest church historians were unanimous in believing the Matthew docs were authentic. When did they believe that to be true..what year(s)? When were historians such as Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Origen and Tertulian all testifying to this fact? Any of them contemporaries of Matthew or Jesus? Justin Martyr - a Gentile, born about 110C.E. in Samaria in the city of Flavia Neapolis, the modern Nablus. He called himself a Samaritan and was a diligent student of philosophy. Unsatisfied in his search among the Stoics, Peripatetics, and Pythagoreans, he pursued the ideas of Plato. Iraneaus - a native of Asia Minor, born between 120C.E. and 140C.E. in or near the city of Smyrna. Irenaeus personally testifies that in his early youth, he was acquainted with Polycarp, an overseer in the Smyrna congregation. Origen was born about 185C.E. in the Egyptian city of Alexandria and schooled in Greek literature. He became a noted scholar and a prolific writer. He is most famous for his Hexapla, a 50-volume edition of the Hebrew Scriptures. Origen arranged the Hexapla in six parallel columns containing: (1)the Hebrew and Aramaic text, (2)a Greek transliterationof that text, (3)Aquila’s Greek version, (4)Symmachus’ Greek version, (5)the Greek Septuagint, which Origen revised to correspond more exactly to the Hebrew text, and (6)Theodotion’s Greek version. “By this combination of texts,” Tertullian was a writer in the 2nd and 3rd centuriesC.E. He came to be known as one of the most prolific sources of the history of the Church and of the doctrines which were taught in his time.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4960 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
8uptwidit2 writes: What if none of this happened? What if none of Jesus' contemporaries saw anything at all that would make them believe Jesus was the Messiah? there is too much evidence that it all did happen
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Peg Member (Idle past 4960 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
hi grannymagda,
grannymagda writes: How could a Jew of that era believe all this about Jesus, speak of him in such glowing terms, regard his miracles as fact and yet remain unconvinced by him? because faith is not a possession of all people. Seeing is not necessarily believing and believing does not necessarily motivate one to follow. Perhaps Josephus was well aware of what it meant to be a christian in those days and didnt want to be hunted down and burned alive or fed to the lions.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4960 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
8upwidit2 writes: In your own dating system, Peg, you show the labored point that NONE of these historians lived before the 2nd or 3rd centuries current era. So if they were supporting any documents or occurrences prior to that, it would be hearsay based on something somebody else wrote or said. How would anything they would say have any value in this conversation? what they say holds a lot of value. historians didnt' just write the goings on of the things that were happening in their own day. they were researchers of things of the past too, just as they are today. For instance Josephus, in the first centuryC.E., records the Jewish tradition that Alexander The Great was met by the Jewish high priest and was shown the divinely inspired prophecies recorded by Daniel foretelling the lightning conquests by Greece. he wrote about things that happened centuries before his time. He also wrote about the destruction of the temple in 70CE, something he did witness and his account also states that the repository of the archives, housing the genealogical records of tribal and family descent and inheritance rights, was put to the fire. (The Jewish War, VI, 250, 251 [iv, 5]; II, 426-428 [xvii, 6]; VI, 354 [vi, 3]) this shows us that the jews did keep records of all births and jewish families and housed these records in temple. much the same way our government has a registry of births deaths and marriages...no much has changed since ancient times.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4960 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
huntard writes: There's a very simple reason for this, Peg. The gospels were written AFTER the supposed eyewitnesses were all dead. So even if they saw something completely different, they wouldn't be able to refute any of it, they weren't alive anymore to do so. if you dont mind me asking, what is the reasoning behind this? Is this based on the age of the manuscripts we have currently, or on some other method?
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Peg Member (Idle past 4960 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
Huntard writes: It is based on the opinions of scholars based on the opinions of scholars of what time period?
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