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Author | Topic: The timeline of the Bible | |||||||||||||||||||||||
kbertsche Member (Idle past 2159 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
I'll focus on what i believe is the crux of Rrhain's difficulty:
I wrote:
As I've said repeatedly, they DO NOT mean two different things.
(*blink!*)
quote:YES. I've been saying this and you've been pretending that I didn't. It means an ancestor/descendent relationship in both cases. Do you understand what the word "ancestor" and the word "descendent" mean?
quote:Adam is the ancestor of Seth, and Jared is the ancestor of Enoch. n+1st time:They DO NOT mean two different things. They mean EXACTLY the same thing. I've stated this repeatedly. Why do you keep playing dumb? quote:What a silly question! As you know, and as I've said repeatedly, it is not the "begat" phrasing, but OTHER parts of the narrative (Gen 4) further define the ancestor/descendent relationship in the case of Adam and Seth. They do not do this in all of the other cases. I wrote:
They mean an ancestor/descendent relationship in both cases.
quote:What part of "They mean an ancestor/descendent relationship in both cases" do you not understand? Where did you get "father" from these words? n+2nd time:They DO NOT mean two different things. They mean EXACTLY the same thing. I wrote:
In one case it may be father/son and in another it may be great-grandfather/great-grandson.
quote:Do you understand what the word "ancestor" and the word "descendent" mean? n+3rd time:They DO NOT mean two different things. They mean EXACTLY the same thing. I've stated this repeatedly. Why do you keep playing dumb? quote: I already addressed this (multiple times):
This is not an inconsistency or a special pleading. In both cases "begat" means "ancestored". The exact same words mean the exact same thing in both cases.
quote:NO! I am NOT saying this. I have specifically denied this multiple times. Do you understand what the word "ancestor" and the word "descendent" mean? n+4th time:They DO NOT mean two different things. They mean EXACTLY the same thing. I've stated this repeatedly. Why do you keep playing dumb? It seems that we cannot even communicate at the present time. You seem to not understand what I am saying, you put foreign words in my mouth, and you twist my words. Until you can understand what I am saying on these points, there is no reason to discuss any further points. You don't have to agree with me, but you at least have to understand me before we can move this discussion ahead.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2159 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote: Agreed. As I've repeatedly explained to Rrhain, the "begat" phrasing of Gen 5 is non-specific, meaning only ancestry/descendency. It is the other narrative (e.g. Gen 4) that clarifies for us that Adam and Seth were specifically father/son.
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Daniel4140 Member (Idle past 5511 days) Posts: 61 Joined: |
Edited by Daniel4140, : Replied to wrong person, will fix it
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Daniel4140 Member (Idle past 5511 days) Posts: 61 Joined: |
Hi Rrhain,
I'm replying to you in support of Peg. First point. Acts 7:4 says: quote:. It is a provable fact that Shem, though listed first was not born when Noah was 500. We must therefore drop the assumption that first listed in a multiple son list means first born. It only means most important born. Your allegation that the synchronism Terah 205 = Abrahm 75 is a math error disappears since your assumption that the listing indicates order of birth is incorrect. I believe that God made biblical chronology obscure, but he did not make it impossible to solve. He wants sincere people to make a search for the truth in this age. The points I made above are charted on the following pages: http://www.torahtimes.org/book/page128.pdf Shem's Birthhttp://www.torahtimes.org/book/page130.pdf Shem at the Flood http://www.torahtimes.org/book/page135.pdf Abraham's Birth http://www.torahtimes.org/book/page136.pdf Terah's death Daniel
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
kbertsche responds to me:
quote: No, I've been constantly and persistently amazed that you have, begging and pleading for you to provide something, anything that justifies your claim other than, "Kitchen says so." That is not sufficient. Since the very same words are used to describe the relationship between Adam and Seth as between Jared and Enoch, then if Adam and Seth are father/son, then so are Jared and Enoch. But you keep saying that they don't mean the same thing...something about the later description, despite being exactly the same, despite there being absolutely no context change, means that the two mean different things. And then you immediately contradict yourself to say that no, they don't mean different things. Which is it? Do you agree or disagree that the words used to describe the relationship between Adam and Seth are exactly the same as the words used to describe the relationship between Jared and Enoch? If you do agree that the words are the same, then how do you manage to conclude that they mean one thing with regard to Adam and Seth but something different with regard to Jared and Enoch...and then contradict yourself to say that no, they mean the same thing?
quote: That's not what it says, though. While it is true that fathers are ancestors, the text does not say that Adam "ancestored" Seth. It says that he "begat" Seth. Since this phrasing is used to mean that Adam is the father of Seth, why does the context suddenly change with relation to all of the others? Eighteenth time: Is there a missing verse we don't know about? Something in the description about the life of Adam after Seth and then Adam's death changes it? How? If the text means that Adam was the father of Seth, how can the exact same description not mean that Jared is the father of Enoch? If I establish a context and then I keep going without a break, using the exact same words in follow-on imagery, how did the context change? "Kitchen says so" is not sufficient. How many times do I need to ask you these direct questions before you answer them? Yes or no: Is there a missing verse we don't know about? I really want to hear your answer to that question. Please provide a direct answer to this direct question. It is not rhetorical. Yes or no: Is there something in the description about the life of Adam after Seth and then Adam's death that changes the context? I really want to hear your answer to that question. Please provide a direct answer to this direct question. It is not rhetorical. Please, I'm begging you. Answer the question: If I establish a context and then I keep going without a break, using the exact same words in follow-on imagery, how did the context change? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
kbertsche writes:
quote: Nineteenth time: Is there a missing verse we don't know about? Something in the description about the life of Adam after Seth and then Adam's death changes it? How? If the text means that Adam was the father of Seth, how can the exact same description not mean that Jared is the father of Enoch? If I establish a context and then I keep going without a break, using the exact same words in follow-on imagery, how did the context change? "Kitchen says so" is not sufficient. How many times do I need to ask you these direct questions before you answer them? Yes or no: Is there a missing verse we don't know about? I really want to hear your answer to that question. Please provide a direct answer to this direct question. It is not rhetorical. Yes or no: Is there something in the description about the life of Adam after Seth and then Adam's death that changes the context? I really want to hear your answer to that question. Please provide a direct answer to this direct question. It is not rhetorical. Please, I'm begging you. Answer the question: If I establish a context and then I keep going without a break, using the exact same words in follow-on imagery, how did the context change? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Daniel4140 responds to me:
quote: Even if we assume this to be true, we're talking about a discrepancy of less than 200 years. Ergo, we're still talking about a chronology of the earth being only about 6000 years old. Thus, Peg's original claim that the Bible doesn't say the earth is 6000 years old is still shown to be incorrect: It says it flat out. The fact that it doesn't say, "The Earth was created on Sunday the 21st of October, 4004 B.C., at exactly 9:00 A.M., because God liked to get work done early in the morning while he was feeling fresh," doesn't mean that it doesn't say how old life, the universe, and everything is. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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adimus Junior Member (Idle past 5521 days) Posts: 9 From: the heartland, USA Joined: |
I made this article drawing from information from "Hard Sayings of the Bible" by by Walter C. Kaiser, Peter H. Davids, Frederick Fyvie Bruce, Manfred T. Brauch. It is relevant to this topic. Tell me what you think... AFTER you read it all carefully.
Admin Modulous deleted a large copy/paste. This information can be found this source and this source. Edited by adimus, : No reason given. Edited by AdminModulous, : No reason given.
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adimus Junior Member (Idle past 5521 days) Posts: 9 From: the heartland, USA Joined: |
...
Edited by adimus, : No reason given.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9199 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
This whole post is just a cut and paste fom here
Are you the original author? If so why didn't you just explain it a little and link? Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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adimus Junior Member (Idle past 5521 days) Posts: 9 From: the heartland, USA Joined: |
WRONG!
This is where my source was, exactly where I said it was and where I said you could check. Hard Sayings of the Bible - Walter C. Kaiser, Jr., Peter H. Davids, F. F. Bruce, Manfred Brauch - Google Books I have never seen those two articles, wise guy. It looks like someone else may be ripping off the book I drew from and not giving them any credit, as I clearly did. I admitted that I gleaned the info from the book at the top of the article. That is why I left certain references in the article so that people could look up those things in that particular book. Of course, I would never attempt to sell that article or turn it in for a college paper or it would be too close and would be considered plagiarism, like the link you gave. Maybe it was a mistake coming here to interact with people. If they are all as anal as you are being. Some welcome I got. You can go about things A LOT more politely. Edited by adimus, : No reason given.
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AdminModulous Administrator Posts: 897 Joined: |
I have never seen those two articles, wise guy. It looks like someone else may be ripping off the book I drew from and not giving them any credit, as I clearly did. Just because someone else ripped off a book, that doesn't mean you get to. The words you used were identical in almost 99% of cases with the articles you had 'never seen'. If you wrote those words yourself, rather than copying them from the book, it looks like someone else copied your article. Perhaps you can introduce one issue from the book in question and show us its relevance to this topic?
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adimus Junior Member (Idle past 5521 days) Posts: 9 From: the heartland, USA Joined: |
Obviously you did not read the link I gave.
This forum sucks. You are calling me a liar and I know you didn't even read the article in the first place. You guys are extremely anal. I am done here. Funny how no other forums reacted like a bunch of high school nerds with zits on their face. Edited by adimus, : No reason given.
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AdminModulous Administrator Posts: 897 Joined: |
It doesn't bother you that some guy called Brent Herbert has seemingly ripped off your articles? I read them both simultaneously, they are almost identical. It'd bother me.
Ah well,Goodbye.
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adimus Junior Member (Idle past 5521 days) Posts: 9 From: the heartland, USA Joined: |
OK. I couldn't resist trying to get the last word. That person couldn't have ripped me off since I only posted it once on another forum months ago and I got maybe one or two replies. Being that we can't post my article here and we can't post his, we can't compare the two so you can eat humble pie.
If anything, it is likely that that person took from the same article that I did from Hard Sayings of the Bible By Walter C. Kaiser, Peter H. Davids, Frederick Fyvie Bruce, Manfred T. Brauch, page 48. (see it on Google Books for proof). Also, I am comparing my article with the link someone put here that I supposedly copied, and I can't find where I even supposedly copied it from. In fact, that article assumes that the Bible is not the inspired and accurate word of God, totally contrarily to mine. I saw that the last article was plagiarizing Hard Sayings of the Bible By Walter C. Kaiser, Peter H. Davids, Frederick Fyvie Bruce, Manfred T. Brauch. All you have to do is read the last paragraph in the book and compare it to theirs. They took it and changed it into an anti-Bible paragraph. I tried to email the author but his link to email does not work. Edited by adimus, : No reason given.
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