kertsche responds to me:
quote:
Rrhain is making a plausible argument here, but it is not a proof.
Incorrect.
Is Adam the father of Seth?
Is Seth the father of Enos?
Yes or nos, please.
quote:
Paraphrasing his argument above
No, let's not. Let's use my exact argument, shall we? We're not talking about Matthew. We're talking about Genesis.
For one thing, Matthew has a comparative genealogy in Luke. The two of them contradict. They share only four names in common despite listing 26 generations between David and Jesus in Matthew and 41 in Luke, they can't agree on the relationship among them. Matthew lists Eliakim as being a descendant of Salathiel while Luke has him as an ancestor.
Genesis doesn't have this. The only genealogy we have for the generations between Adam and Noah is the one listed in Genesis 5.
quote:
In Mt 1:8, where Joram "begat" Uzziah, three generations are skipped. Uzziah was actually the great-great-grandson of Joram according to the Old Testament.
There's a much more logical explanation: Matthew got it wrong. It won't be the last time a New Testament text misquots an Old Testament text. Hell, Matthew 1 goes on to forget that Jehoiakim is between Josiah and Jeconiah.
This doesn't mean that Matthew isn't talking about fathers and sons. It simply means it screwed up the genealogy.
Genesis doesn't have this problem. See, you can go on and on about the New Testament all you want, but it is irrelevant. We aren't talking about Matthew or Luke or 1 Chronicles. We're talking about Genesis. Therefore, we have to approach it from the context of Genesis.
It's all well and good that other passage might mean something different. That isn't the question. The question is what does this passage mean. Given its context, what is it trying to say?
You will note that I haven't mentioned the book of Jasher which gives more information regarding the relationships of the characters in Gen 5:
Jasher 4:1: And all the days that Enoch lived upon earth, were three hundred and sixty-five years.
4:2: And when Enoch had ascended into heaven, all the kings of the earth rose and took Methuselah his son and anointed him, and they caused him to reign over them in the place of his father.
4:3: And Methuselah acted uprightly in the sight of God, as his father Enoch had taught him, and he likewise during the whole of his life taught the sons of men wisdom, knowledge and the fear of God, and he did not turn from the good way either to the right or to the left.
4:4: But in the latter days of Methuselah, the sons of men turned from the Lord, they corrupted the earth, they robbed and plundered each other, and they rebelled against God and they transgressed, and they corrupted their ways, and would not hearken to the voice of Methuselah, but rebelled against him.
4:5: And the Lord was exceedingly wroth against them, and the Lord continued to destroy the seed in those days, so that there was neither sowing nor reaping in the earth.
4:6: For when they sowed the ground in order that they might obtain food for their support, behold, thorns and thistles were produced which they did not sow.
4:7: And still the sons of men did not turn from their evil ways, and their hands were still extended to do evil in the sight of God, and they provoked the Lord with their evil ways, and the Lord was very wroth, and repented that he had made man.
4:8: And he thought to destroy and annihilate them and he did so.
4:9: In those days when Lamech the son of Methuselah was one hundred and sixty years old, Seth the son of Adam died.
4:10: And all the days that Seth lived, were nine hundred and twelve years, and he died.
4:11: And Lamech was one hundred and eighty years old when he took Ashmua, the daughter of Elishaa the son of Enoch his uncle, and she conceived.
4:12: And at that time the sons of men sowed the ground, and a little food was produced, yet the sons of men did not turn from their evil ways, and they trespassed and rebelled against God.
4:13: And the wife of Lamech conceived and bare him a son at that time, at the revolution of the year.
4:14: And Methuselah called his name Noah, saying, The earth was in his days at rest and free from corruption, and Lamech his father called his name Menachem, saying, This one shall comfort us in our works and miserable toil in the earth, which God had cursed.
4:15: And the child grew up and was weaned, and he went in the ways of his father Methuselah, perfect and upright with God.
4:16: And all the sons of men departed from the ways of the Lord in those days as they multiplied upon the face of the earth with sons and daughters, and they taught one another their evil practices and they continued sinning against the Lord.
4:17: And every man made unto himself a god, and they robbed and plundered every man his neighbor as well as his relative, and they corrupted the earth, and the earth was filled with violence.
4:18: And their judges and rulers went to the daughters of men and took their wives by force from their husbands according to their choice, and the sons of men in those days took from the cattle of the earth, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and taught the mixture of animals of one species with the other, in order therewith to provoke the Lord; and God saw the whole earth and it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted its ways upon earth, all men and all animals.
4:19: And the Lord said, I will blot out man that I created from the face of the earth, yea from man to the birds of the air, together with cattle and beasts that are in the field for I repent that I made them.
4:20: And all men who walked in the ways of the Lord, died in those days, before the Lord brought the evil upon man which he had declared, for this was from the Lord, that they should not see the evil which the Lord spoke of concerning the sons of men.
4:21: And Noah found grace in the sight of the Lord, and the Lord chose him and his children to raise up seed from them upon the face of the whole earth.
Notice the direct descriptions of the various characters still being alive at other events. 4:9 is particularly compelling: "In those days when Lamech the son of Methuselah was one hundred and sixty years old, Seth the son of Adam died." Seth is still alive when Lamech, seven generations after him, is alive. Jasher 3 has a similar passage, describing how Adam is buried by Enoch and Methuselah.
Of course, there's a bit of a problem with the math. Jasher 3 states:
Jasher 3:14: And it was in the fifty-sixth year of the life of Lamech when Adam died; nine hundred and thirty years old was he at his death, and his two sons, with Enoch and Methuselah his son, buried him with great pomp, as at the burial of kings, in the cave which God had told him.
Well, Adam lived 800 years after Seth. But if you add up all the ages listed in Jasher from the birth of Seth to the death of Adam, you only get 600:
Seth is 105 when he sires Enosh (Jasher 2:2).
Enosh is 90 when he sires Cainan (Jasher 2:10).
Cainan is 70 when he sires Mahlallel (Jasher 2:15-16).
Mahlallel is 65 when he sires Jared (Jasher 2:37).
Jared is 62 when he sires Enoch (Jasher 2:37).
Enoch is 65 when he sires Methuselah (Jasher 3:1).
Methuselah is 87 when he sires Lamech (Jasher 3:13).
Lamech is 56 when Adam dies (Jasher 3:14).
But when you add those up, you only get 600, not 800. Genesis 5 would have the math add up correctly because it says Jared is 162 when he sires Enoch, not 62 and Methuselah is 187 when he sires Lamech, not 87.
The point: Cross-text references make mistakes.
But, I don't refer to this to provide context for Genesis because the status of Jasher is in doubt. Thus, I don't expect it to be taken seriously and it doesn't have an effect on how we study Genesis.
And thus, we don't look to Matthew or Luke to tell us how to study Genesis. Genesis was written by Jews for Jews and can only be understood in a Jewish context. To take a Christian interpretation, even though it supports what I am saying, doesn't help.
Where in Genesis do we find any justification for the claim that the genealogy in Gen 5 is anything other than father/son? Especially since the first part of the chain is definitively father/son?
Is Adam the father of Seth?
Is Seth the father of Enos?
Is there a missing verse we don't know about? Something in the description about the life of Adam after Seth and then Adam's death changes it? How? If the text means that Adam was the father of Seth, how can the exact same description not mean that Jared is the father of Enoch? If I establish a context and then I keep going without a break, using the exact same words in follow-on imagery, how did the context change?
Rrhain
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