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Author | Topic: The timeline of the Bible | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
jaywill responds to me:
quote:quote: Oh, really?
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Oh, but that's too vague. OK...you want something more concrete. Just a few off the top of my head:
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. Believe or go to hell. At any rate, you're still missing the point. It doesn't really matter what the book says. How can we be sure god isn't testing us, seeing who depends upon others to do their thinking for them and who relies upon the gifts god gave them to find their own way?
quote: No, for I am not speaking for god. I am simply questioning why you think you can.
quote: What makes you think god wants you to? Now, back to the topic: Do you have any evidence that generations are skipped? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
jaywill responds to me:
quote: Shouldn't the word of god be better than that? Shouldn't it not have any paradoxes or contradictions?
quote: But you assume you know your faith is directed toward god. What makes you think you understand god's motives?
quote: Why not? What makes you think you can speak for god?
quote: But who are you to say god isn't? When did you become god's spokesman? Now, back to the topic. Where do you find evidence that time has been skipped? When the text says that Adam was 130 when he begat Seth, he wasn't? He was older? Where is the evidence? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
jaywill responds to me:
quote: What makes you think you got it right?
quote: What makes you think I don't? I'm not the one claiming to speak for god.
quote: Because every religion makes the same claim. You didn't really think the god that truly exists was the Christian one, did you? You're trying to pull Pascal's Wager on me and you should know better by now. Now, back to the topic. Where do you find evidence that time has been skipped? When the text says that Adam was 130 when he begat Seth, he wasn't? He was older? Where is the evidence? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
jaywill responds to me:
quote: Irrelevant. Your reference is from Abraham to Jesus. The genealogy in question is from Adam to Noah. Do you have any evidence that any generations were skipped there? We've got ten: Adam, Seth, Enos, Cainan, Mahalaleel, Jared, Enoch, Methuselah, Lamech, Noah. The reason we know that there is a discrepancy in the list you gave is because we have a second list that is different (and again, notice how we say that the error is in skipping generations rather than adding them). Where is the second list of the generations of Adam that indicates that generations were skipped? It doesn't matter that generations were skipped in other lists. We aren't looking at those lists...especially when they were written nearly two millennia later by a different religious group who had an agenda to try and prove the legitimacy of their new religious order. Where is the evidence that Genesis 5 skipped generations? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
jaywill responds to me:
quote: Irrelevant. Your reference is from Abraham to Jesus. The genealogy in question is from Adam to Noah. Do you have any evidence that any generations were skipped there? Where is the second list of the generations of Adam that indicates that generations were skipped? It doesn't matter that generations were skipped in other lists. We aren't looking at those lists...especially when they were written nearly two millennia later by a different religious group who had an agenda to try and prove the legitimacy of their new religious order. Where is the evidence that Genesis 5 skipped generations? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
kbertsche responds to me:
quote: You mean the text doesn't use "yalad"? Again, the primary meaning of "yalad" is in reference to a direct parentage. It can be used metaphorically to describe longer relationships but when referring to two individual people, "yalad" means to father (directly), not "ancestor." Nobody says a father or mother "ancestors" a child.
quote: And thus, we're back to the question I keep asking: Is Adam the father of Seth?Is Seth the father of Enos? Let's add a few more: Is Eve the mother of Cain?Is Eve the mother of Abel? Is Eve the mother of Seth? The word used to describe the coming into existence of Cain, Abel, and Seth is "yalad." Eve does not "ancestor" her sons, she gives birth to them. The word used to describe the act of giving birth is "yalad." It is not an indication that she is some distant relative. It is an indication that she is their direct mother. Context established. What changed the context such that when the same word is used in the same manner with regard to the same people, it doesn't mean the same thing?
quote: Since the primary meaning of "yalad" is direct parentage, you would have to explain why this wasn't the meaning. You have yet to explain why in any case, actually. Again, of the nearly 500 times "yalad" is used in the Bible, more than 400 of them are in reference to direct parentage. What's so special about this one? Where is the evidence?
quote: So since Adam named Seth and Seth named Enos and Enos named Cainan and Cainan named Mahalaleel and Mahalaleel named Jared and Jared named Enoch and Enoch named Methuselah and Methuselah named Lamech and Lamech named Noah, that must mean they weren't named distant descendents, either. And for all of these people, "yalad" is only word used to describe how they came into the world. Since "yalad" means a direct parentage, where is the evidence that it is being used metaphorically for everybody except Adam, Seth, and Enos? Nobody "ancestors" a child. What changed the context such that when the same word is used in the same manner with regard to the same people, it doesn't mean the same thing?
quote:quote: (*blink!*) You did not just say that? Are you seriously saying that "yalad" has "ancestor" as its primary meaning and not "giving birth"? More than 80% of its uses in the Bible meaning a direct parent relationship and somehow, everybody has missed that what it really means is to imply distant relationships, not direct ones? Then we have nothing more to discuss. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
jaywill responds to me:
quote: And each time, I pointed out its irrelevancy. That Matthew skipped generations is irrelevant to the question of Genesis skipping generations. Where is the second list of the generations of Adam that indicates that generations were skipped?
quote: Then you're off-topic. If you wish to discuss Matthew, start your own. This thread is about the timeline of the Bible and the genealogy found in Matthew doesn't enter into it.
quote: Then take some time to figure it out and come back when you're ready to contribute to the topic of this discussion: Whether or not the Bible gives a timeline for when life, the universe, and everything was created. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
jaywill responds to me:
quote:quote: Then take some time to figure it out and come back when you're ready to contribute to the topic of this discussion: Whether or not the Bible gives a timeline for when life, the universe, and everything was created.
quote: Congratulations. You read the opening post. What made you think you should deviate from that topic? If you wish to discuss Matthew, start your own thread.
quote: So when the Bible says Adam was 130 when he sired Seth, it doesn't really mean that?
quote: Since Adam was created only six days after the creation of the universe, how can that not be important?
quote: But Matthew is irrelevant. We're talking about Genesis. Where is the evidence that Genesis 5 skipped generations? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
kbertsche responds to me:
quote: They don't have names? The same verb, the same people, the same context, why does the meaning change?
quote: No, it isn't. You do not "ancestor" a child. "Yalad" does not mean that. It means giving birth directly. That's why the verb used to describe Eve giving birth to Cain, Abel, and Seth is "yalad." That's why the verb used to describe the way Adam gave rise to Seth and the way Seth sired Enos is "yalad." So how does the context change? How many times do I have to ask before you give the evidence? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
So how does the context change? How many times do I have to ask before you give the evidence? Same word, same people, same context. Why does it mean something different?
Is Adam the father of Seth?Is Seth the father of Enos? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
jaywill responds to me:
quote: If you can show how Matthew tells us the generations of Adam, then you would have a point. Since you haven't you are off-topic. Start your own thread.
quote: I didn't ask you to. You will note that I never mentioned Ussher. I simply asked if the numbers listed in the chronology (and specifically listing what they were) add up to about 6000, thus indicating that the Bible does, indeed, say that life, the universe, and everything are only about 6000 years old.
quote: Since I'm the one that started the thread, that is precisely what I am. If you don't like it, start your own thread. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
jaywill responds to me:
quote: Indeed, that's my point. The Bible starts "in the beginning" and not "later."
quote: But you talked about an irrelevant timeline. The subject here is the chronology from the beginning. The genealogy listed in Matthew doesn't help us analyze that since we're going from Adam to Noah to Abraham to the covenant to the exodus to the foundation of the temple. David, Jesus, etc. don't really enter into it. Now, do you have any evidence that the generations of Adam were incomplete and skipped some? Do you have a secondary list that has a different set of names? Do you have any evidence that indicates that the amount of time that passed from Adam to Noah cannot be determined by adding up the years listed in Genesis 5?
quote: Do you have any evidence that Genesis 5 was one of those times? The reason we conclude that there is an issue with the genealogy of Matthew (and again, how interesting that we claim that generations were skipped rather than added) is that we have a secondary list of generations that differs. Where is the secondary list of generations of Adam? Where is your evidence?
quote: So when the text says Adam was 130 when he sired Seth, it isn't true? Adam wasn't 130? How can you tell? Where is your evidence? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
jaywill responds to me:
quote: Incorrect. After all, my timeline uses texts other than Genesis to determine the chronology. My position is that a text that does not mention anything about the generations of Adam is of no use when trying to determine the generations of Adam. Let us assume that Matthew skipped generations. Great. How does that affect the listing of the generations of Adam? The reason why we know that Matthew has a discrepancy is because we have a secondary list from which Matthew deviates. So where is the secondary list of the generations of Adam from which Gen 5 deviates? Where is your evidence?
quote: Indeed. That's because it was "the beginning" and thus nothing existed. That is, after all, what "waste and void" means. That is what "beginning" means. The universe starts at "the beginning" and not "later."
quote: Incorrect. There was nothing to destroy. If there were, then we wouldn't be at "the beginning" but rather would be "later." But the text specifically and directly describes the timeline as starting from "the beginning."
quote: Incorrect. It was no more than a day. A literal, 24-hour day. And we are told what happened on that day: Light was created, separating daylight from nighttime, and heaven was created. That is all that happened from "the beginning," which started from nothingness, to the end of the first day. Of course, all that discussion is off-topic. Read the original post. If you want to discuss that, start your own thread. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
jaywill responds to me:
quote: Um, you do realize that the entire point of this thread is that we do? That the Bible says so? That there are specific passages that mention specific periods of time that pass between events and that one of those events can be localized to an actualy known time which means that yes, we can say how long the beginning was. According to the Bible, life, the universe, and everything is only about 6000 years old.
quote: That must be why Jews, who surely know their own religion better than non-Jews, claim the year is only 5769. The Jewish calendar counts from the beginning. Yes, I am well aware that there are "interpretations" of the text that try to extend this time period. For example, there are those who claim the "days" of Genesis 1 aren't literal, 24-hour days. I disagree as the text uses phrasing that specifically indicates literal, 24-hour days.
quote: Incorrect. They are the first days because they start at "the beginning," not "later." The earth doesn't come into existence until the third day, thus there is no previous version that was destroyed.
quote:quote: Which is irrelevant.
quote: Which is irrelevant.
quote: Which was incorrect. Even if we grant your false claim, that's still only 30 years. We're still only about 6000 years old.
quote: Incorrect. Genesis 12 describes it.
Genesis 12:4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran. quote: That is the calling. That is the covenant. When Galatians says that the exodus happened 430 years after the covenant, that is the event being referred to.
quote: Incorrect. The text says that the earth didn't exist in the beginning but instead was made on the third day. There was no previous version.
quote:quote: Then you might want to consider withdrawing until you have studied it and found the evidence you need to justify your claim. Whether or not Matthew skipped generations is irrelevant. We aren't talking about Matthew. We're talking about Genesis 5. No matter how many other listings of generations skip some, that doesn't help us to determine if Gen 5 did.
quote: It isn't an assumption. The text directly says: Six days before the creation of humans (well, technically five because humans were created on the sixth day.)
quote:quote: That isn't an answer. Let's try again, shall we? So when the text says Adam was 130 when he sired Seth, it isn't true? Adam wasn't 130? How can you tell? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
jaywill responds to me:
quote: Do you have any evidence that this is relevant to Gen 1:2?
quote: Incorrect. The use of "tohuw" and "bohuw," especially together, is not indicative of overthrow but rather of non-existence, very much akin to the Greek use of "chaos." It is a way to describe nothingness itself. We've been over this before. Of course, all that discussion is off-topic. Read the original post. If you want to discuss that, start your own thread.
quote: Incorrect. The serpent is just a serpent. Remember, Genesis was written by Jews, for Jews, and can only be understood in a Jewish context. There is no such thing as the devil in Judaism. There is no "enemy" or "opposer." Even the adversary in the story of Job is an agent of god, not some sort of antithesis to god. Of course, all that discussion is off-topic. Read the original post. If you want to discuss that, start your own thread.
quote: And since I'm not using only Genesis to determine the timeline, one wonders why you're bringing this up.
quote: Incorrect. "Tohuw" and "bohuw," especially when used together, do not refer to overthrow, judgement, or anything else. They instead refer to nothingness itself, complete and utter non-existence. We've been over this before. Of course, all that discussion is off-topic. Read the original post. If you want to discuss that, start your own thread. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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