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Author
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Topic: Atheism on the Rise
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 11 of 76 (506614)
04-28-2009 2:00 AM
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Reply to: Message 9 by SammyJean
04-27-2009 3:22 PM
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Re: Chairty
Hi Sammy Jean,
Sammy Jean writes: I don't either, I think atheist are just as charitable as religious people. That's why I like to see this brought to light in the public. How better to do this then by a charitable organization that is openly atheistic? I second than emotion. Three or four of you need to get together and start a non-profit coropration and get busy. We need lots of help trying to feed the hungry that come to the food shelters, also to keep the shelters for battered women open, the shelters for young teenage mothers, as well as the homeless. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 9 by SammyJean, posted 04-27-2009 3:22 PM | | SammyJean has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 13 of 76 (506616)
04-28-2009 2:13 AM
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Reply to: Message 10 by Taz
04-27-2009 10:09 PM
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Re: RAmen
Hi Taz,
Taz writes: Every atheist and agnostic has been asked the following question in one form or another: if you don't believe in god how can you have any moral? I can assure you that no born again child of God has ever asked anyone that question. They know morality is hardwired into each individual by God not nature. Now I will not say that religious people have not asked that question. Taz I accepted God's offer for a free full pardon a long time ago and I don't have to do anything other than that to go to heaven. It didn't cost me a thing. I don't have to do any work to obtain it. It is a present posession because I accepted His offer. Therefore all the things I do and have done over the past 60 odd years is because I want to. It makes me feel good. It gives me great satisfaction to help someone along life's journey. Sorry Taz but I do take offence at your statement. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 10 by Taz, posted 04-27-2009 10:09 PM | | Taz has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 18 of 76 (506650)
04-28-2009 7:57 AM
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Reply to: Message 15 by Percy
04-28-2009 6:43 AM
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Re: RAmen
Hi Percy,
Percy writes: It gets asked here all the time. Go back to sleep. Percy I have read the question several times since I have been coming to this site. So I know that it is asked. My statement was that a person that was a born again child of God would not ask the question because he/she knows the answer to the question.
Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; God hardwired His laws into the minds of mankind. Everybody that goes to church and cliams to be a christian ain't one. To be a Christian you have to be living a life like Christ did. I don't claim to be one, just somebody that is working on being one. I haven't been asleep, just real busy lately with more important things. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 15 by Percy, posted 04-28-2009 6:43 AM | | Percy has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 22 of 76 (506710)
04-28-2009 2:38 PM
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Reply to: Message 19 by SammyJean
04-28-2009 10:39 AM
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Re: Chairty
Hi Sammy,
Sammy Jean writes: My point wasn't that that atheist aren't doing enough, my point was that WE AREN'T TAKING THE CREDIT FOR OUR CHARITABLE ACTS! My point was whatever you are doing it is not visible. If you want people to know you need to hang out a shingle and proclaim to be in the fight. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 19 by SammyJean, posted 04-28-2009 10:39 AM | | SammyJean has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 33 of 76 (506763)
04-28-2009 8:43 PM
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Reply to: Message 25 by Taq
04-28-2009 3:10 PM
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Re: RAmen
Hi Taq,
Taq writes: ICANT and theists like him portray humans as amoral robots. But they are not robots. Man chooses to do what ever he wants to do. God gave the first man a choice ot know good and evil and he chose to do so. The laws are hardwired in mankind. Some here say by nature, I say by God. I don't know of any other creature that has the ability as man does.
Taq writes: Theists want to pretend as if morality doesn't exist. Who's pretending? Not me, I said the laws were hardwired into mankind. I didn't say anything about mankind having to choose to do anything good or bad. Mankind simply chooses to do what ever he deems to be right. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 25 by Taq, posted 04-28-2009 3:10 PM | | Taq has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 36 by Taq, posted 04-28-2009 9:26 PM | | ICANT has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 34 of 76 (506764)
04-28-2009 8:52 PM
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Re:Chairty
Hi Everyone, I was simply addressing a statement made by Sammy Jean.
Message 4 She had expressed a desire to see Atheist more involved in doing good deeds, and taking the credit for it. Nothing more or less. I personally would appreciate any help we can get. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 35 of 76 (506765)
04-28-2009 9:13 PM
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Reply to: Message 26 by Rahvin
04-28-2009 3:49 PM
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Re: RAmen
Hi Rahvin,
Rahvin writes: It seems to me that, given the wild disparity in what is determined to be "moral" amongst different cultures, it is obvious that morality is subjectively determined by communities. Morality is different amongst different cultures because of the choices mankind has made down through the ages. Mankind is free to choose to do anything he desires. God Bless, BTW do you mind if I use this message of yours in my Sunday sermon?
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 26 by Rahvin, posted 04-28-2009 3:49 PM | | Rahvin has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 39 by Rahvin, posted 04-28-2009 11:28 PM | | ICANT has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 40 of 76 (506803)
04-29-2009 12:11 PM
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Reply to: Message 39 by Rahvin
04-28-2009 11:28 PM
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Re: RAmen
Hi Rahvin.
Rahvin writes: How can humans be simultaneously "hardwired" from birth to understand the Christian God's objective morality, I don't remember saying anything about a human being hardwired to understand the Christian God's morality. If I did please forgive me. I did say that the laws were hardwired into the mind. Heb. 10:16 People are not hardwired to do specific things. The knowledge of good and evil is present in every human because the first man chose to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. What mankind chooses to do is a totally different thing.
Rahvin writes: You're basically saying that we're all hardwired to like peaches and not like oranges, No, the only one saying that is you.
Rahvin writes: Are human beings "hardwired" to know God's objective morality, or not? No. God is sovereign His morality is absolute. God's absolute morality is written in mankind's mind. Mankind picks and chooses which he wants to accept and to what extent to practice those parts he chooses to accept.
Rahvin writes: Wouldn't the rational conclusion be that, assuming all human beings are "hardwired" with the same moral standards, we should all independently come to the same conclusions regarding morality across cultures? If not, why not? How can one reach a rational conclusion when their mind is already convinced of a certain belief? You are not getting it, that is that the knowledge of good and evil is hardwired. Obedience to either is not hardwired into mankind. He is a free moral agent to choose good or evil. That is what I call free will.
Rahvin writes: If you agree, then does not the fact that different cultures hold extremely different views on morality firmly disprove the idea that human beings are "hardwired" with any sort of objective morality? If not, why not? The only thing that different cultures holding extremely different views of morality prove is that mankind can convince themselves that what they believe is the absolute truth and everybody else is absolutely wrong. Again mankind is not hardwired to do good or evil. Mankind is hardwired with the knowledge of good and evil and is left to make his choice as to what he chooses to do whether it is good or evil.
Rahvin writes: But I'd appreciate it if you'd post the gist of whatever sermon you come up with here on the forum so I can respond to however you use my words. Send me an e-mail and I will send you a copy of the outline. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 39 by Rahvin, posted 04-28-2009 11:28 PM | | Rahvin has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 41 of 76 (506807)
04-29-2009 12:27 PM
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Reply to: Message 38 by SammyJean
04-28-2009 10:59 PM
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Re: Re:Chairty
Hi Sammy,
Sammy Jean writes: And to tell you the truth; when ever dealing with the public I'm always extremely cautious of people that claim "oh you can trust me, I'm a good person, I'm a Christian." Anybody that tells me he/she is a Christian, I tell them they are a liar. BTW I pastor a Church. A Christian is a person living a life like Christ did. No one does that period.
Sammy Jean writes: Excuse me? What I said was that I wanted to see it be public what atheist are 'already doing' for charity. Message 4 Sammy Jean writes: One thing I would like to see is more atheist participating in charity or more charitable organizations that are openly atheist. quote:
more atheist participating in charity
My statement was: quote:
She had expressed a desire to see Atheist more involved in doing good deeds,
quote:
more charitable organizations that are openly atheist
My statement was: quote:
and taking the credit for it.
If that is misinterperting what you said, I apologize. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 38 by SammyJean, posted 04-28-2009 10:59 PM | | SammyJean has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 44 by SammyJean, posted 04-29-2009 2:09 PM | | ICANT has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 42 of 76 (506809)
04-29-2009 12:32 PM
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Reply to: Message 36 by Taq
04-28-2009 9:26 PM
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Re: RAmen
Hi Taq,
Taq writes: Then we aren't hardwired. You are not hardwired to obey God's moral laws, and I never said mankind was. I said mankind was hardwired with the knowledge of good and evil. Mankind chooses to choose what is good and what is evil that is the reason there are so many different views of what is moral and what is not. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 36 by Taq, posted 04-28-2009 9:26 PM | | Taq has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 46 by Straggler, posted 04-29-2009 6:22 PM | | ICANT has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 53 of 76 (507457)
05-05-2009 9:29 AM
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Reply to: Message 47 by Taz
05-01-2009 1:13 PM
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Re I am beginning
Hi Taz,
Taz writes: Are you suggesting that we all started out with the same basic moral structures and as time goes on people develop new moral ideas based on their varying experiences? I am not suggesting, I have declared God wrote His laws in our minds and gave Scripture reference where God said He did. Humans have to learn, then cultivate bad things in their life. A baby will learn very early in life to lie. He/she cries when wet, and hungry. When that happens someone changes his diaper or feeds him/her. He learns that when he/she cries someone will pick them up. So they begin to lie just to get you to pick them up. They can be bawling their eye balls out, not a tear in sight, you pick them up and they hush immediately. He is not wet or hungry just wanting you to pick him/her up. That nature (natural man) is then cultivated by what our parents, peers, teachers, and religious leaders teach us. Then we get to the point we decide what is right and what is wrong. We have then arrived at the place the serpent told Eve would obtain by eating the fruit and become as God knowing good and evil. Without God laws of morality there is no reason for morality to exist. I think Gould said it best in, "In the Mind of the Beholder", when he stated that "no factual discovery of science can, in principle, lead us to ethical conclusions, or to convictions about intrinsic meaning." God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 47 by Taz, posted 05-01-2009 1:13 PM | | Taz has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 54 of 76 (507459)
05-05-2009 9:40 AM
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Reply to: Message 45 by onifre
04-29-2009 4:50 PM
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Re: RAmen
Hi oni,
onifre writes: So will you admit that your conclusions are also not rational since you have a "certain" belief as well? Sure. Wouldn't you agree that your conclusions are based upon what you have learned over your life span so far?
onifre writes: You're basically saying that we know better but choose otherwise. Exactly. Many choose otherwise because they have been taught there is no God. Most choose otherwise because they don't want to be under any authority other than their own. This includes most who claim to be christian. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 45 by onifre, posted 04-29-2009 4:50 PM | | onifre has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 59 of 76 (507737)
05-07-2009 4:01 PM
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Reply to: Message 58 by onifre
05-06-2009 7:36 PM
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Re: RAmen
Hi oni,
onifre writes: Say a child born in a tribe where no god(s) are spoken of, is the child born knowing right from wrong, or, do these concepts have to be taught at the social level? He/she is born with the knowledge of good and evil. If left alone he/she will decide what is right and what is wrong. But can be taught anything, which will overshadow and eventually overwrite that knowledge and replace it. Then he/she will decide what is right and wrong by what they have learned. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 58 by onifre, posted 05-06-2009 7:36 PM | | onifre has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 60 by Perdition, posted 05-07-2009 4:52 PM | | ICANT has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 66 of 76 (508328)
05-12-2009 3:37 PM
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Reply to: Message 63 by Rrhain
05-12-2009 9:43 AM
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Re False
Hi Rrhain, I said: "Without God laws of morality there is no reason for morality to exist." Your response was:
Rrhain writes: And yet, the mere existence of atheists proves this to be false. Are you saying the mere existence of atheist is a reason for morality to exist?
Rrhain writes: Or are you claiming atheists have no morals? No. I am saying mankind has decided what was good and what was evil since the first man ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That is the reason there are people with their moral bar set low, other with it set much higher with a lot inbetween. You are what you choose to be. No one makes you do or be anything you don't want too. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 63 by Rrhain, posted 05-12-2009 9:43 AM | | Rrhain has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 68 by Rrhain, posted 05-12-2009 9:34 PM | | ICANT has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Re: The "Laws of Morality"
Hi Parasomnium,
Parasomnium writes: If morality somehow exists independently of God, then there is no reason why we could not arrive at it ourselves, without God's help. If morality exists without God, where did it come from? Why does morality exist?
Parasomnium writes: One of the most basic moral tenets, the "Golden Rule" if you will, is to treat others as you would want them to treat you. It's a very simple rule, but it has the power to help build stable societies. And it does not mention God anywhere, if you get my drift. So, where did the "Golden Rule" come from? Perhaps it came from the words found in the book of Exodus chapter 20. The ten commandments recorded there some 3800 years ago whether given by God, or just the product of Moses is the earliest basis I can find. The first four commandments were mankinds dealings with God. The last six was mankinds dealings with mankind. 5. Honor thy father and thy mother. 6. Thou shalt not kill. 7. Thou shalt not commit adultery. 8. Thou shalt not steal. 9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. 10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's. Jesus gave two commandments almost 2000 years ago as recorded in Matther chapter 22. 1. Was concerning mankinds dealings with God. 2. Matthew 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. So, where did your "Golden Rule" come from? God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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