Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,901 Year: 4,158/9,624 Month: 1,029/974 Week: 356/286 Day: 12/65 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Why, if god limited man's life to 120 years, did people live longer?
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2135 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 136 of 230 (494808)
01-18-2009 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by rcmemphis
01-18-2009 4:04 PM


Accuracy vs. Inerrancy
A much more possible interpretation is that after God decrees that man will live 120 years, he is saying that he will destroy mankind in 120 years through the flood. It would take a long time to build the ark anyways.
Welcome to EvC!
A couple of points:
Other than the bible, what is the evidence for mankind regularly living for over 120 years? How would you determine such an age in an archaeological skeleton? Are there other forensic methods that would provide such information of which I am not aware?
Other than the bible, what is the evidence for a global flood? I've practiced archaeology for nearly 40 years, and I have researched many sites dated in the 4-5,000 year range. As the flood is purported to have occurred about 4,350 years ago (according to a large number of biblical scholars), why have I been unable to find evidence of such a massive event? And why have I instead found evidence of continuity of human cultures, fauna and flora, sedimentology, and mitochondrial DNA from before to after that approximate date?
This thread is in the Science Forum. You are expected to back up your comments with scientific evidence. Thanks.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by rcmemphis, posted 01-18-2009 4:04 PM rcmemphis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by rcmemphis, posted 01-19-2009 12:37 AM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2135 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 138 of 230 (494811)
01-18-2009 9:32 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Peg
01-18-2009 8:55 PM


What about Neanderthal? Don't they count for anything?
Its also noteworthy to think that, before the flood, humans probably didnt have the disease and illnesses and we have today...many of which are passed along genetically.
If that is the case, how do you explain these details concerning the Neanderthal (from Wikipedia):
Or do you believe, as Woodmorappe and Lubenow do, that Homo erectus, H. ergaster & H. neanderthalensis are all products of "super evolution" which occurred after the flood, and most likely after the Babel event (in the last 4,000 years)?
If this is the case, you need to explain how these creationists can claim that this type of macro-evolution, which they normally claim is impossible, suddenly occurred several hundred times faster than evolutionists claim, and in reverse!

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Peg, posted 01-18-2009 8:55 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Peg, posted 01-19-2009 1:05 AM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2135 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 141 of 230 (494825)
01-19-2009 1:13 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by rcmemphis
01-19-2009 12:37 AM


Re: Accuracy vs. Inerrancy
I think we can keep this to the accuracy vs. inerrancy of the bible and stay on topic.
The human fossil record is not my strong point, but it seems to be yours (you stated you practice Archaeology, I wanted to be one when I was younger), so you can help on this one. Is there a way to test how old someone was when they died from their fossil? Also, please indicate the depth of the fossil records that are available (I'm specifically interested in the quantity and quality of fossils from biblical time periods) Please answer those, but I'll assume that it is possible to tell the age of death from fossils for now.
It is possible to estimate the age of death with both modern human bones and fossils. There are a number of traits you look for including cranial suture closure, dental wear, some esoteric changes in ribs and the pubic symphysis, etc. I looked at a skull for a local coroner late last week and from my knowledge of local Native American groups was able to age that skull to about 50 years.
Assuming that, I do not have knowledge of any human fossil that proves a man can live past the 120s range. But in light of the lack of clarity surrounding the actual historical dates for the Genesis account, and an incomplete record of fossils, and the fact that we are targeting a distinct set of generations in the bible (by the time we get to Moses life is in the 120 range) and a small set of specifically named people you could probably understand how an argument from silence wouldn't hold a great deal of sway with me.
At the age we would expect from Genesis (ca. 6,000 years or less) we would expect bones, not fossils. And at that age they should be fully modern human.
But the problem I have, and this led to my question above, is what traits would you use for ages of greater than 120 years? Science works with the assumption of methodological naturalism, and once miracles are involved pretty much anything can happen at any time for any reason. Of course there is currently no evidence for miracles resulting in either extant of ancient populations reaching greater than 120 years of age.
In regards to a global flood, I believe most of the earth is covered with sedimentary rock suggesting the earth was covered with water some time in the past. We are also dealing with 150 days here, not a massive amount of time in history, so the accuracy of your findings described would be extremely sensitive to the correct dating of flood and the archaeological sites.
The oldest sedimentary rocks, found in Greenland, are about 3.9 billion years old. The youngest are measured (I think) in more like tens of thousands of years. To claim that sedimentary rocks, spanning these vast time periods, are all the result of a single global flood ignores a huge amount of science.
The flood is dated by biblical scholars at about 4,350 years ago. That is a time period that archaeologists are very familiar with. The flood, if as described, would have been very noticeable and would have resulted in major discontinuities in human cultures, fauna and flora, DNA, sediments, etc. These have not been found.
What has been found, to give one example, is a series floods in eastern and southern Washington that resulted when ice dams at the end of the last glacial period blocked meltwaters in the area of western Montana, then periodically let that water loose as huge floods. We can see the results of these floods, and can both date them and determine their extent. And, they are close to three times as old as the global flood and vastly smaller. We certainly should be able to see a global flood if we can see other such floods both smaller and older from various parts of the globe. (Google "channeled scablands" for more details.)
What it seems to come down to is the >120 year life span and the global flood are both religious beliefs, and neither is confirmed by scientific evidence.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by rcmemphis, posted 01-19-2009 12:37 AM rcmemphis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by rcmemphis, posted 01-19-2009 4:28 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2135 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 148 of 230 (494889)
01-19-2009 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by rcmemphis
01-19-2009 4:28 PM


Re: Accuracy vs. Inerrancy
Thanks for the information. I was wondering how you could tell the age of death of bones, and this gives some clarity to it. I was guessing that type of evidence (cranial suture closure, dental wear, some esoteric changes in ribs and the pubic symphysis)was probably the case. I think it would be most reasonable to assume that if humans did live hundreds of years, they wouldn't age like we do up until our 70's and 80's with grey hair, weaker bones, etc. then continue to live in that state for hundreds of years. The aging would probably be proportional to ours but at a slower rate of decomposition of cells. This is an assumption I know, but if this were the case, that aging was proportional to ours but at a slower rate, would you agree that bone examination would not reveal an accurate age of death?
I will agree that science has no experience with 900 year old human bones. You are dealing with miracle and belief there, not scientific evidence.
In terms of any scientific evidence for the flood, there is not a absence of geological information. Many creationist works are compiled here:
Answers | Answers in Genesis
I have not found answersingenesis to be a very trustworthy site when it comes to scientific data. The amount of distortion, obfuscation omission and misrepresentation that I have found in their articles for fields that I know well bodes ill for the site as a whole.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by rcmemphis, posted 01-19-2009 4:28 PM rcmemphis has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2135 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 161 of 230 (507534)
05-05-2009 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by cjh7583
05-05-2009 4:46 PM


Re: Possible Limits On Human Life-span?
If science cannot prove something true or false, then it is known as theory, however for the sake of this discussion, I use the word BELIEF.
And I would like to finish with a quote from a very esteemed evolutionary and theological scholar who's name escapes me at this moment.
Here are some definitions which may help you understand these terms, which apparently are unfamiliar to you:
Theory: a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of circumstances to explain a specific set of phenomena; theories can incorporate facts and laws and tested hypotheses. Theories do not grow up to be laws. Theories explain laws.
Theory: A scientifically testable general principle or body of principles offered to explain observed phenomena. In scientific usage, a theory is distinct from a hypothesis (or conjecture) that is proposed to explain previously observed phenomena. For a hypothesis to rise to the level of theory, it must predict the existence of new phenomena that are subsequently observed. A theory can be overturned if new phenomena are observed that directly contradict the theory. (Source)
When a scientific theory has a long history of being supported by verifiable evidence, it is appropriate to speak about "acceptance" of (not "belief" in) the theory; or we can say that we have "confidence" (not "faith") in the theory. It is the dependence on verifiable data and the capability of testing that distinguish scientific theories from matters of faith.
Hypothesis: a tentative theory about the natural world; a concept that is not yet verified but that if true would explain certain facts or phenomena; "a scientific hypothesis that survives experimental testing becomes a scientific theory"; "he proposed a fresh theory of alkalis that later was accepted in chemical practices."
Proof: Except for math and geometry, there is little that is actually proved. Even well-established scientific theories can't be conclusively proved, because--at least in principle--a counter-example might be discovered. Scientific theories are always accepted provisionally, and are regarded as reliable only because they are supported (not proved) by the verifiable facts they purport to explain and by the predictions which they successfully make. All scientific theories are subject to revision (or even rejection) if new data are discovered which necessitates this.
Proof: A term from logic and mathematics describing an argument from premise to conclusion using strictly logical principles. In mathematics, theorems or propositions are established by logical arguments from a set of axioms, the process of establishing a theorem being called a proof.
The colloquial meaning of "proof" causes lots of problems in physics discussion and is best avoided. Since mathematics is such an important part of physics, the mathematician's meaning of proof should be the only one we use. Also, we often ask students in upper level courses to do proofs of certain theorems of mathematical physics, and we are not asking for experimental demonstration!
So, in a laboratory report, we should not say "We proved Newton's law" Rather say, "Today we demonstrated (or verified) the validity of Newton's law in the particular case of..." Source
Truth: This is a word best avoided entirely in physics [and science] except when placed in quotes, or with careful qualification. Its colloquial use has so many shades of meaning from ‘it seems to be correct’ to the absolute truths claimed by religion, that it’s use causes nothing but misunderstanding. Someone once said "Science seeks proximate (approximate) truths." Others speak of provisional or tentative truths. Certainly science claims no final or absolute truths. Source
Belief: any cognitive content (perception) held as true; religious faith.
"The knowledge of the infallibility or fallibility of a phenomenon is not as crucial as the discipline of being unbiased to either side."
As near as I can determine, this quote does not exist on the internet. Perhaps you have misquoted it?
Until you can provide a source and an author, I'm afraid we'll have to disregard it.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by cjh7583, posted 05-05-2009 4:46 PM cjh7583 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by IchiBan, posted 05-05-2009 10:21 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2135 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 163 of 230 (507539)
05-05-2009 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by IchiBan
05-05-2009 10:21 PM


Re: Possible Limits On Human Life-span?
"The knowledge of the infallibility or fallibility of a phenomenon is not as crucial as the discipline of being unbiased to either side."
Sounds reasonable to me, attributed or not. And who is the 'we' you claim here and generally infer to be speaking for, since very often we get no more than your word or assertion and 'trust me'.
The quote is from an "esteemed evolutionary and theological scholar" or some such. But it does not show up anywhere google reaches, and I would certainly not trust it on that basis.
And it would seen to me that "evolutionary" and "theological" scholars are somewhat opposite. Evolution is a science, and relies on facts and the scientific method. Theology is a study of beliefs, with no necessary connection to either facts or reality, and it certainly does not rely on the scientific method.
Describing theology, Heinlein said it best:
Theology is never any help; it is searching in a dark cellar at midnight for a black cat that isn't there. Theologians can persuade themselves of anything.
Robert A. Heinlein, Time Enough for Love, 1973

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by IchiBan, posted 05-05-2009 10:21 PM IchiBan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by IchiBan, posted 05-12-2009 1:46 AM Coyote has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024