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Author Topic:   Misconceptions in Relativity
Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 63 of 141 (509726)
05-24-2009 7:20 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by cavediver
05-24-2009 5:08 AM


Vanish The Sun
Are the gravitationnal effects of a body instanteneous, or do they propagate at the speed of light?
According to General Relativity (and most related gravitational theories) gravitational effects propegate at the speed of light. This is consistent with the limited number of experimental/observational tests carried out.
I have always found this notion really intriguing.
If the sun were to (hypothetically) just be "vanished" away we would continue to orbit as normal for 8 minutes or so? Is that correct?
How can we visualise this situation in terms of spacetime curvature? Does ST sort of "spring back" into flatness?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by cavediver, posted 05-24-2009 5:08 AM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by cavediver, posted 05-24-2009 8:13 AM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 67 of 141 (509738)
05-24-2009 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by cavediver
05-24-2009 8:13 AM


Re: Vanish The Sun
I'm fond of pointing out that if you invoke magic to set up your experiment, you cannot expect meaningful results! You cannot simply vanish away the mass of the Sun using any physics of which we are aware.
Oh of course. But then nor can we look at cats in boxes without actually looking at them. Sometimes hypothetically invoking magic in "what if" scenarios can be a valid method of seeking understanding from those with superior knowledge. IMHO.
However, answering in the spirit of your question, GR is a *local theory*. Space-time geometry at a point depends on the mass/energy distribution at that point. There is no action at a distance. The space-time curvature 7 light minutes out from the Sun is not a direct result of the Sun's mass, but of the space-time curvature slightly less than 7 light minutes out. Think of the old rubber sheet analogy. So the space-time will relax outwards from the centre, and will take eight minutes to affect the space-time around us.
So the topology (is that the right use of the term?) of spacetime itself "reconfigures" itself at the speed of light? Is that what we are saying here? Or have I misunderstood?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by cavediver, posted 05-24-2009 8:13 AM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by cavediver, posted 05-24-2009 10:05 AM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 69 of 141 (509742)
05-24-2009 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by cavediver
05-24-2009 10:05 AM


Re: Vanish The Sun
Straggler writes:
So the topology (is that the right use of the term?) of spacetime itself "reconfigures" itself at the speed of light?
We use geometry - topology refers to the connectedness of a space, and is a whole new subject within General relativity - but yes, that is the idea. However, it is very difficult to test directly.
How could it be tested in principle? Ignoring practical limitations for one second.
Would the observation of a black hole forming be a method of establishing this somehow?
If this is not the sort of topic intended just tell me to bugger off and I'll stop pestering you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by cavediver, posted 05-24-2009 10:05 AM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by cavediver, posted 05-24-2009 10:44 AM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 71 of 141 (509746)
05-24-2009 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by cavediver
05-24-2009 10:44 AM


Re: Vanish The Sun
Straggler writes:
How could it be tested in principle?
It can't
Oh bugger! I see.
Because you can't magic mass/energy into and out of existence. All you can do is shift it around. And I don't need to tell you that there is a limit to how fast you shift mass/energy around. Hence the problem...
Yep.
At the risk of totally talking out of my arse....(and when did that ever stop anyone round here?).....What if we wormholed the Sun away somehow? Is that an even in principle notion or is it just utter bollocks?
All you can do is look (indirectly) at gravitational waves. These do definitely appear to propegate at the speed of light.
I know almost nothing about gravitational waves. I thought they could be indirectly detected by astronomical observations of certain (highly massive) binary star systems. BUT I must admit I did also think that there were experiments in place to try and measure such things directly. Is this not the case?
Not really. If the Sun collapsed to a black hole today, what gravitational effect would this have on us?
Well roughly 7-8 mins after this event I am "conjecturing" that the earth would be sucked into this black hole?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by cavediver, posted 05-24-2009 10:44 AM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by NosyNed, posted 05-24-2009 11:06 AM Straggler has replied
 Message 74 by cavediver, posted 05-24-2009 11:17 AM Straggler has not replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 73 of 141 (509748)
05-24-2009 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by NosyNed
05-24-2009 11:06 AM


Re: Vanish The Sun
Straggler writes:
Well roughly 7-8 mins after this event I am "conjecturing" that the earth would be sucked into this black hole?
No. The gravitational field here would be just the same as it was. The event horizon of that black hole would be (pure guess here) a few kms only. Outside that we'd just keep orbiting like we do now.
This feels like two kids waving their arms enthusiastically in class to get the teachers attention!!!!
No way Nosy!!
We have gone from a region of massive but finite density to a region of infinite density. We cannot just keep orbitting unaffected. Can we?
The 7-8 mins taken to affect us is the event horizon.
Cavediver who is right and who is wrong? Necks are on the line here

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by NosyNed, posted 05-24-2009 11:06 AM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by cavediver, posted 05-24-2009 11:24 AM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 76 of 141 (509753)
05-24-2009 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by cavediver
05-24-2009 11:24 AM


Re: Vanish The Sun
Then I stand as demonstrably "misconceived" and now educated. My congrats to Nosy for his superior knowledge.
I now go off to hide my public shame.
But I have learnt something which must after all be the point of this thread.
More annoyingly misconceived questions to follow....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by cavediver, posted 05-24-2009 11:24 AM cavediver has not replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 78 of 141 (509808)
05-25-2009 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by cavediver
05-24-2009 11:24 AM


Re: Vanish The Sun
*We* haven't - we are a long way from the Sun. All we care about is how much mass/energy is contained within our orbital radius. We don't give a damn how dense it is, just so long as it is a spherically symmetric distribution. Blow the Sun up, and as long as the entire debris cloud remains within our radius, and remains spherically symmetric, we'll keep orbiting. Likewise, should the Sun collapse. The only difference the collapse will make is that we can know get much closer to the interesting parts of the Solar space-time: r=2M (the event horizon, about 3km for the Sun), and r=0 (the singularity). Normally, we cannot encounter these regions of space-time as they don't exist, as the Sun occupies that space.
I have been thinking about this and have come to appreciate just how dum my previous response in fact was. Embarressingly so in fact.
However it does raise the folowing question: Where do "we" need to be in order to be affacted by the (hypothetical again) transition of our Sun into a black hole? Would it only affect bodies on the surface of the Sun or (somehow) within it's radius? Or would a body in close enough orbit be affected in any way by this restructuring of spacetime that makes up the focus of that orbit?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by cavediver, posted 05-24-2009 11:24 AM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by cavediver, posted 05-25-2009 9:32 AM Straggler has not replied
 Message 80 by lyx2no, posted 05-28-2009 8:01 AM Straggler has not replied

  
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