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Member (Idle past 4960 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Christian Laws | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:And further down Jesus says: "In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple." Jesus was not talking to future believers, he was talking to the people of his time, the people who could physically follow him as the twelve did. Christians are obviously not giving up everything. When the master left, did he just leave the slave with a handful of metaphors and catch phrases to follow? As I said in Message 6 PD writes: I keep asking because Christians can't produce their own standards of behavior and provide support that those standards carry a death penalty from God on judgment day. I keep asking because Christians keep claiming that the Mosaic Law came to and end, but keep holding people up to portions of that law. I keep asking because Christians avoid the issue. Christianity dishes out catch phrases and metaphors. Laws or rules of behavior should never be left to interpretation. A master who provides clear instructions, isn't reduced to a computer flow chart. He is a good master. A master whose words can be twisted to suit the whims of the slave, is not a good master. If the slave can't tell me what his master's will is, then the master did not make his will clear. Edited by purpledawn, : Msg "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:What later times? I already told you that according to Jewish History the Oral Torah sprouted around the end of the 2nd century bce. It provided the practical application of the law. Existence and Usage How can you accept Jewish tradition for Mosaic authorship, but not for the Oral Law? Show me in reality that the Jews viewed the oral law as more important than the Mosaic Laws. In Matthew 15:1, Jesus is pointing out the hypocrisy of the Pharisees, not condemning the Oral Law. As I showed in Message 89, the author of Matthew has Jesus telling people to do what they say, but not what they do since they don't practice what they preach.
Matthew 23 1.Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2."The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3.So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. quote:1. Show me that Verse 5 was part of the Oral Law. 2. Show me that all the Oral Laws violated Gods laws. Just because Jesus disagrees with one or two of the oral laws, doesn't mean he disagrees with them all. As I showed in Message 89. quote:Because that wasn't the point of the article. In Message 80 you said: Jesus never quoted oral Jewish traditions, he always quoted from the inspired scriptures. And I provided - Adultery can be committed with the eyes (Leviticus Rabba 23:12) which is from the Oral Law. From the article "The Oral Torah in the New Testament".
...(1Cor 8:8) three of the four commandments that the Jerusalem Council insisted all believers observe immediately upon becoming Jesus believers dealt with food. (Acts 15:20&29; 21:25) Two of these came from the oral Torah: not to eat things sacrificed to idols,[45] and not to eat things strangled.[46] The written Torah does not forbid either of these types of food, yet Jesus, in Revelation, is portrayed as strongly rebuking the communities of Pergamum and Thyatira for breaking the ban on their consumption. (Rev 2:14 & 20)... Jesus’ ideas on prayer mirror those in the oral Torah, as well. He taught his disciples not to babble when they prayed (Mat. 5:7), and advised them to never stop praying for something they really needed. (Luke 18:1-6) What Jesus called babbling, Chazal labeled calculating, purposely making one’s prayers long so that they would be an-swered. Calculating, or babbling, was forbidden by the Oral Torah;[Babylonian Talmud, Berekhot 32b] and just as Jesus advised his disciples to continue asking G-d for what they wanted, the oral Torah commanded the Israelites, If a man realizes that he has prayed and not been an-swered, he should pray again.[Babylonian Talmud, Berekhot 32b] From the article "Jesus and Oral Torah" The Last Passover of Yeshua also indicates that He observed elements of the oral traditions. When He blessed the bread and Cups, He was following the general pattern of the Seder that was endorsed by the sages of His day. Yeshua also apparently wore tzitzit (Mark 6:56, Matt. 9:21), recited Haftarah in the synagogue on the Sabbath according to the parashah divisions developed by Ezra and the members of the Great Assembly (Luke 4:16-22), referred to the Bible in the threefold division of Torah, Writings, and Prophets (i.e., the Tanakh, also developed by Ezra the Scribe); and so on. Yeshua's teaching methodology (the use of parables, the master-disciple relationship, and so on). Paul and Oral Torah
For example, when he wrote, "And all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ" (1 Cor. 10:4), he was quoting from a story later recorded in the Talmud (i.e., that from the time that Moses struck the rock at Horeb and brought forth water until the death of Miriam (Ex. 20:1), this water-giving rock "followed the children of Israel through the desert and provided water for them each day" (Taanit, 9a and Bava Metizia, 86b)). In addition Paul was careful to observe various Torah restrictions during his life. Even after his conversion, he took the Nazirite vow (Acts 18:18), lived "in observance of the Torah" (Acts 21:23-24), and even offered sacrifices in the Jewish Temple (Acts 21:26). Paul asked, "Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law" (Rom. 3:31). In Message 1 you included this verse as a Christian Law.
7. Acts 15:28 "For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to YOU, except these necessary things, 29 to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication" Two of those on the list are from the Oral Law, not the Written Law.
quote:The gospels do not cover everything Jesus taught during his ministry. We have no idea what the Twelve taught after his death, and we don't have all of what Paul taught. Each author had a purpose for his writing. They didn't need to include the Jewish teachings that Jesus agreed with since that was taught in the synagogues. They only had to include that which was different. Edited by purpledawn, : Msg # "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:And still you don't answer the question. Your concern is rationalizing why you can't tell me specifically what the Master's will is. No confusion, no interpretation, clear to everyone what he will judge when he returns. I don't present doubt of Christ, I present doubt of Christian tradition.
quote:Why? God didn't write the NT or Christian traditions. quote:Good grief! I'm continuing the analogy you quoted in Message 117 from Luke 12:47. Are your comprehension skills that bad? Please stick to the topic of the thread. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Well stop, you aren't taking to converts. It is a debate and the task is to provide the Christian Laws (Peg's term, not mine) for which Christians are held accountable. quote:Chapter 15 from the Book of John (90-120CE). Jesus is talking to his disciples there with him. What makes that a practical application for the average Christian today? The "laws" don't have to be thou shalt or shalt not, but they do need to be clear instructions and not ambiguous catch phrases and metaphors. Example in your own words: So to abide in the Lord and to allow His grace to empower them to live Christ they must excercise their spirit and turn to their spirit where the Spirit of Jesus is.
quote:So what is the practical application of this requirement? How does one or anyone else know if one is achieving this requirement? "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:The commandments are the key to abiding according to this author. John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. quote:It would go faster if someone just knew what the commandments were just like John, Paul, and Peter did. Not so much left to wild interpretation. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:So Christians get moment by moment commandment updates. They don't have them provided in the NT. So only those tuned in can actually know what is expected of them. Interesting. You could actually be wrong about the process to receive such updates. How would you know if you were wrong or how would anyone else know that what you presented was right or wrong? Just trust the unknown man behind the screen? Not good to come before the Master and find out that you got the wrong message. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:According to you. Of course since nobody seems to know the commandments today, everyone is apart from Jesus. quote:John and Peter actually heard Jesus so they had the commandments. You bet they had a short cut. They had a direct line. Christians don't have that today. Paul had access to the original disciples, so again a direct line to information. Not quite the same set up as Christians have today after 2000 years of drift. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Good to know I'm not supposed to get carried away by your various and strange teachings. Without checks and balances, people can't really tell what is required and what is strange. Notice what you dish out compared to what Peg dishes out. Which one is strange? Neither can list the Master's will. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Exactly! Like Hillel before him, Jesus brought a more humane and universal notion of Torah interpretation. The spirit of the law as opposed to the letter of the law. If one gets the spirit right, the details will take care of themselves. We look at what the authors are trying to tell their audience and bring that spirit forward when obeying the laws of our own individual nations all the way down to our communities and families. There are no Christian laws, there are only Christian principles derived from the spirit of the ancient writings and the experiences of people who have gone before. Message 114 quote:No I'm not. I agree we shouldn't stagnate in laws over 2000 years old. quote:I agree. Never said people didn't make mistakes, but to repent one must know what is considered incorrect. Christianity isn't consistently clear. Edited by purpledawn, : Msg # "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Nice visual, but practical application is the key, not just more catch phrases. Colossians 3:4 Parallel Bible
King James Bible When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. American King James VersionWhen Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall you also appear with him in glory. American Standard VersionWhen Christ, who is our life, shall be manifested, then shall ye also with him be manifested in glory. Christ may be your life, but that doesn't make Christ's life your life. It just means those who have devoted their life to better behavior as taught by Christ, they will be with him in glory when he appears. The writer's point, as was Hillel's and that of Jesus was
Colossians 3:12-14 Therefore as God's chosen people holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. and over all these virtues put on love, which binds them al together in perfect unity. ... Paul and pseudo Paul gave their audiences the practical application of their time. What's the practical application of these characteristics in a Christian today? As I said, "We look at what the authors are trying to tell their audience and bring that spirit forward when obeying the laws of our own individual nations all the way down to our communities and families."
quote:Actually the writer is speaking to his audience, not us. quote:Again, nice creative writing, but no practical application, which really is the point of this thread. Get past the catch phrases, the metaphors and the creative writing and give plain unvarnished practical application of what the Master wants. quote:Still all smoke and mirrors, but no substance. No practical application. To repent, one must know what is considered incorrect. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Unfortunately, the idea that people had time to "get it right" isn't really supported by the urgency that Jesus and Paul presented. Both made it clear that the kingdom of God was at hand. It is arrogant to think one has "time" to play the "need to know" game you're presenting. No one knows when they will die. Rather unfair for the Master to leave the slave with only a few requirements with the idea that he'll have to find or figure out the others as he needs them. Then the Master returns and the slave is held accountable for what he didn't find. As the verse concerning the Master said, both will be given stripes for actions that deserve it, one just won't be as harsh. If one wants to avoid stripes, one has to know what actions deserves stripes. They need to be made clear or be clearly available since the Master can come back at any time. Remember? No one knows when. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:You really are missing the point of this thread. From Message 6 PurpleDawn writes: Peg writes:
What I'm reading is that following God's law does not make one righteous or get one on the list for resurrection, only faith in Jesus Christ can get one on the list. BUT, to show faith in God, one must adopt his laws or live as he directs. So we still have to follow "the law" even though it doesn't get us a spot, but yet it does. See the contradiction? Again, make up your mind. Message 344 Anyone who wants to benefit from that salvation MUST put their faith in Jesus Christ and must follow him. This goes for Gentiles too...they must submit to Christian law and the teaching of Christs Apostles. Gods laws and mans are quite different and just because a gentile follows the laws of their land does not mean that they have a righteous standing with God. They must follow Gods laws in order to obtain that. Remember that it is 'Faith' in God that counts a person as righteous, not works of any law. To show faith in God, one must adopt HIS laws....or better put, live as he directs. Christianity presents the idea that believers are not under "law" to be counted righteous, but one must follow "law" to show faith. Even Paul speaks of throwing off the old behavior and taking on the new. What are those new standards based on? I feel that Jesus and Paul based it on Jewish law (written and oral). As I said in Message 152: Like Hillel before him, Jesus brought a more humane and universal notion of Torah interpretation. The spirit of the law as opposed to the letter of the law. If one gets the spirit right, the details will take care of themselves. We look at what the authors are trying to tell their audience and bring that spirit forward when obeying the laws of our own individual nations all the way down to our communities and families. Neither you nor Peg has shown anything more specific. If there is more to the behavioral part, then please share clearly. Edited by purpledawn, : Msg # "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Shame on you for continually not addressing the point of this thread. I've made my intentions and my request very clear in Message 6 and throughout this thread.I want to know what specific behaviors or actions are required by Christians to manifest their faith in God? What will the Master judge specifically as worthy of stripes upon his return? The request is based on a statement by Peg in another thread.
Peg writes: Message 344 Anyone who wants to benefit from that salvation MUST put their faith in Jesus Christ and must follow him. This goes for Gentiles too...they must submit to Christian law and the teaching of Christs Apostles. Gods laws and mans are quite different and just because a gentile follows the laws of their land does not mean that they have a righteous standing with God. They must follow Gods laws in order to obtain that. Remember that it is 'Faith' in God that counts a person as righteous, not works of any law. To show faith in God, one must adopt HIS laws....or better put, live as he directs. I'm not interested in all the nuances of Christianity. This is a very specific thread about a very specific aspect of Christianity. The parable you chose from Luke 12 supports that actions are important and the slave will be held accountable whether he knows the Master's will or not.
Luke 12 41. Peter asked, "Lord, are you telling this parable to us, or to everyone?" 42. The Lord answered, "Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? 43. It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. 44. I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45. But suppose the servant says to himself, 'My master is taking a long time in coming,' and he then begins to beat the menservants and maidservants and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers. 47. "That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked. quote:I do want to know about the laws or behaviors for which Christians are held accountable. I'm not asking how long it takes an individual to learn the rules. I'm not asking for the process the religion uses to teach the rules. I'm asking for the unvarnished rules and the authority that makes them the Master's will. Very simply, what will earn a slave stripes and what won't?It should be as simple as that. Edited by purpledawn, : Msg # "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:So list how Jesus lived and show support. List how Jesus loved and show support. Jesus lived as a Jew (religion). If you disagree, show that he didn't. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:No. You're just listing generalities. I want specifics.How are you supposed to think? How are you supposed to talk? How are you supposed to treat others? How are you supposed to think about others? How are you supposed to think about yourself? How are you supposed to sleep? How are you supposed to eat? How are you supposed to handle your money? How are you supposed to post on the internet? Please show specific support, not just more analogies and metaphors. Love is not a specific answer.Abiding is not a specific answer. What is the practical application that is the same for everyone.Standard Operating Procedure. Same across the board. Nothing left to interpretation. Why is this so difficult?Shouldn't a Christian be able to rattle them off? "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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