Christian Laws

Jaywill, I don't disagree with your basic concept that we are to behave ourselves. That's what Jesus taught and that's what Paul taught.

quote:

---

I am going to conclude this post with a quotation from Derek Prince, a Christian teacher:

​

"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes" (Romans 10:4)

​

If we believe, then for us Chrtist is the end of the law for righteousness. Not the end of the law as part of God's Word. Not the end of the law as a part of the history of the culture of Israel. But it is the end of the law as a means of achieving righteousness with God. this is true for everyone who believes: Jew or Gentile, Protestant or Catholic. It makes no difference. If we are reckoned righteous with God by the death of Jesus, it means the end of the law.

​

"But if you are led by the Spirit, you are no under the law" (Galatians 5:18)

​

We can choose, but we can't have it both ways. Jesus has made it possible for us to be guiltless and not condemned. He has abolished the law as a means of acheiving righteousness with God. As long as we are seeking to achieve righteousness by keeping a law, we will never be without condemnation. We can never be sure we habve done enough. We can never be sure that before each day ends we will not have broken some aspect of the law.

​

I am not suggesting we should be lawless or disobedient. What I am saying is we will never achieve righteouness with God by keeping a set of rules. To try to do that is to insult God, because we are telling Him, in effect, "Jesus didn't need to die. I could have made it without Him." What a terrible thing to say: that the deaht of Jesus wasn't necessary. So, we are set free from condemnation on the basis of these two facts. First, our past sins can be totally forgiven - ALL of them. Second, we are not required to observe a law to achieve righteousness with God."

​

[The Battle Lines are Drawn, Lucifer Exposed - the Devil's Plan to Destroy Your Life, Derek Prince , Whitaker House, pg. 48,49]

---

As I said, there are no Christian Laws.

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

quote:

---

hehe you're a tough cookie to crack purpledawn!

---

That's because you're trying to unlock a door that is already open.

quote:

---

Here is a scripture that, in a nutshell, shows what we must strive for

---

I didn't ask for Christianity on one foot.
I didn't ask for you to make a long story short.
I didn't ask for the Cliff Notes.My nutshell from Message 114. You disagree with that summary. You continually differentiate between man's laws and God's laws (Message 84), but cannot list God's laws.In Message 101, you say that Jesus lived and taught God's standards. But then in Message 108 you claim that Christians are not required to follow the Mosaic Law because they know what Jesus and the apostles taught. Now I've already agreed several times that Christians are not bound by Mosaic or Jewish Law. Of course I don't think you like my reasoning. The Christians were Greeks and never were under Jewish Law. They were bound by the laws of the land though.But, Jesus and his followers were Jewish. The lessons that Jesus taught were from the Jewish religion and law. Yes, I have shown you that they are. Message 89I also agree that all that is legal today, is not necessarily ethical.You disagree with my summary (Message 344 of the Prisoner of Sin Thread) and you contend that God's Laws are different than man's laws; and you contend that the Mosaic Laws are God's standards and that God's standards never change, and that Christians still must follow God's standards.Continually saying one is free from the law but one's behavior must be in line with the law is contradictory. Both you and Jaywill have presented this idea. Jaywill presents his in a quote at the end of Message 172. Now both of you are hung up on the "being deemed righteous issue". Not once have I asked for the list of laws that will make one righteous before God. You are the one who says we must follow God's laws. Even Jaywill's quote says we still aren't allowed to be lawless and disobedient.So the question is and has been, what are the standards that God holds us accountable for? I'll make this easier for you. Only list those standards that aren't already covered by regional laws (yours, since you don't necessarily know mine).Again, I don't want a summary, in a nutshell, Cliff Notes, long story short, etc.
I don't want catch phrases or metaphors.Actually list what standards God expects Christians to follow and explain why they are God's standards and not man's regional laws.Edited by purpledawn, : Msg #

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

quote:

---

Firstly, I have explained that the Mosaic law was instituted for a specific purpose. Once that purpose was realised, it was no longer a requirement that needed to be followed.

---

Yes and I responded in Message 75. Yes it was presented as a legal system for a theocratic government. Every civilization needs laws and their civilization wasn't any different. Our civilization today is also no different. Laws are needed.Remember, we don't nullify the law by faith, we uphold the law. (Romans 3:31)

quote:

---

Secondly, the Mosaic law was a single package. It had requirements such as observances, festivals, sacrificial offerings, tithing, fasting, obstaining from certain foods, ceremonial cleansing etc etc.
Yes, the laws showed Gods standards, but all those 'requirements' of the law code were in addition to his standards. (remember that before the law code man could be approved by God without following the mosaic law)
Thats why he could removed the Law Code with all of the 'requirements' mentioned above, but the standards remained.

---

Back to your own mythology again. Lawless and disobedient people were not approved by God even before the Mosaic Law. If they were, please show me.

quote:

---

Gods standards have been known since the garden of Eden. Jesus taught those same standards in his sermon on the mount and so did the apostles. But the 'requirements' of the law code were something entirely different. They were for the purpose of acknowledging sin. When someone did wrong, they would have to apply the 'requirement' of the law code to acknowledge their error. This is what was removed from christians because now Christians had an approach to God thru, not sin offerings, but thru Jesus himself. Faith in Jesus became the basis for forgiveness of sins, not those mosaic law code requirements.

---

why do you think Israel functioned differently than any other civilization when it came to handling civil disobedience and disturbances?I assume you get speeding tickets in your country. Whenever you exceed the speed limit do you report yourself to the police? If you like most people, you wait until you get caught.The same thing with Israel. The sacrifice was a fine just like the fine for a speeding ticket.

quote:

---

this is going over the same information that has been posted right throughout this thread. Christian standards of morality can be derived from studying Gods standards. Gods standards are found in the bible in both the Hebrew and Greek scriptures. Its up to each individual to study them and apply them.

---

Good to know. Each interprets them as they see fit, which is what Christianity does.

quote:

---

i dont believe any regional laws state that a person must 'love their neighbor' or must 'look after orphans and widows' or must 'feed the hungry' or 'love your enemy' or 'not eat anything strangled' or 'not use anothers blood' or not 'bow down to idols'

​

I doubt that in the USA its illegal to practice 'fornication, adultery or homosexuality'

---

Love you neighbor is a summary of the Torah. Those are all the Torah/Jewish Law. So what you are saying is that we are to follow the 613 Commandments that the Jews follow today. They don't follow the sacrificial ones either or the ones that only apply to the land of Israel. As I said, Jesus brought a more humane and universal notion of Torah interpretation. The spirit of the law as opposed to the letter of the law. If one gets the spirit right, the details will take care of themselves.We look at what the authors are trying to tell their audience and bring that spirit forward when obeying the laws of our own individual nations all the way down to our communities and families.It isn't about following an ancient civilizations legal system. It is about obeying our respective legal systems and applying mercy when administering a system of rules. Not getting caught up in the letter and forgetting the spirit of the law.Before you have heart failure, I'm not saying any of this is a means of salvation, justification, etc. It has everything to do with how people need to behave to live together peacefully; whether a family, a tribe, a congregation, a team, a club, a town, a city, a state, or a country.Christianity picks and chooses the standards of God they wish to amplify, but I feel the clergy are truly afraid to say we have to behave a certain way because the support for it is in Judaiam. They'll stick to catch phrases and metaphors and hope it keeps people in line.Edited by purpledawn, : Msg #

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

quote:

---

I have showed you.
Tell me, was Noah under the mosaic law?
was Able under the mosaic law?
was Abraham or Jacob or Isaac under the mosaic law?

​

How about Moses. He was chosen by God to lead the nation of Isreal. Was Moses a follower of the mosaic law when God chose him?

​

You know they were not, so how is it they were declared righteous by God? If it wasnt the law the made them righteous, what was it?

---

Were they lawless and disobedient to the legal system that did govern them?As I said in Message 180: Now both of you are hung up on the "being deemed righteous issue". Not once have I asked for the list of laws that will make one righteous before God. You are the one who says we must follow God's laws. Even Jaywill's quote says we still aren't allowed to be lawless and disobedient.Keep up please.

quote:

---

because their laws were from God. They were a theocracy, not a democracy.

---

That's a difference in where the laws came from, not in how the civilization administered the laws.

quote:

---

You do realise that when a woman had a baby she had to make an offering after the birth. Does that mean it was illegal to have a baby?

​

You also realise that if a person contracted a communicable disease, they had to make an offering once the disease had passed. Does this mean it was illegal to get sick.

​

You also know that menstruation required an offering. Was menstruation illegal too?

---

We are discussing right and wrong behavior, not analyzing the Hebrew Legal System.The items you mention concern purification, not wrong behavior. Of course, by mentioning these issues you also show that the Mosaic Laws weren't just for the purpose of acknowledging sin as you stated in Message 181.

quote:

---

everything should be questioned. There is plenty of false information floating around christendom. Its your responsibility to search out what is accurate and what is not. You have a bible, you have a reasoning mind and you have an ability to judge things for yourself. Do it. In the end it will be between you and God, so the ball rests in your court.

---

That's what I do best.

quote:

---

I agree with you totally. The bible tells us to be obedient to the secular authorities. But it also tells us to 'Pay back Gods things to God'
Secular authorities do not deal out mercy. if you are caught speeding, you get a fine. The do not look at the circumstances of why you were speeding. If you get a parking ticket because you stayed too long in your parking spot, you get a fine and the authority doesnt care if you were there too long because your baby was lost in the shopping center and you couldnt leave until you found him.

​

when you place a higher price on secular legal laws, you are doing yourself a disservice.

---

Authorities that carry out secular law may or may not belong to a religion. We don't know that authorities never show mercy. Parking tickets are a difficult one to show mercy on in a large society because so many people lie (even Christians). One can make their case to the right person for leniency though if they choose to. The clerk can't make the decision.Being a Christian isn't about expecting mercy, but practicing mercy when possible. Christians who work within the legal system should show mercy when possible.Applying mercy when administering a set of rules also applies to Christian congregations and the rules governing church practices and the rules that churches glean from the Bible. Since each group judges for themselves what is God's will, there are no consistent set of rules for Christians.So there are no Christian laws and you haven't really shown God's laws either. You say that the Mosaic Laws are still God's standards, but in reality, those ancient laws are not all brought forward as standards. Laws adjust to fit the needs of the civilization.Christians should be law abiding citizens who are benevolent and forgiving.Edited by purpledawn, : Msg #

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

quote:

---

childbirth made a woman 'unclean' because the original purpose of it was to pass on perfect human life. However, because of the inherited effects of sin, imperfect and sinful life was passed on to the offspring. This is why the offering was required...it was still an acknowledgment of the hereditary sin passed onto the child and reminded them of the need to be released from the sinful condition.

---

Please show justification for this mythology; and if you've learned anything about debating with me, you won't use the NT to justify this absurd position.Needless to say I don't think the OT supports your position and your mythology doesn't cover the disease issue. Stop making things up please.

quote:

---

but there is a consistent set of rules...its called the bible. I think what you have come to understand is that the church's of christendom do not apply the bible and do not teach the bibles standards.

​

The bible has been the same since the day it was written.

---

You know as well as I do the contents of the Bible are not consistent. Even Bible translations aren't consistent. Just read the accuracy and inerrancy forum. If the rules were consistent, you could list them easily, but you haven't. All you really shown is that Christians should be following the 613 Commandments the Jews follow today. What you have supplied so far is on that list or in the Oral Laws.When was the original Bible written? 700BC, 200BC, 100BC, 50AD, 70AD, 100AD, 150AD, 200AD...? You cannot show that any version of the Bible is the same as the day it was written.The Bible we have today is a compilation of manuscripts collected over hundreds of years that have been redacted and edited as necessary.

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

quote:

---

what legal system did they live under?

---

Do you really want me to waste a post on answering that question? The laws of their respective civilizations or land they resided in.Civilizations had legal systems before Moses climbed the mountain.
Read Genesis carefully as a book and not as one-liners.Moses was cast into the desert because??? He broke an Egyptian rule.Think before you write please.Edited by purpledawn, : No reason given.

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

You don't get off that easy. In Message 195 you stated: (bold for emphasis) Leviticus does not support your statement and neither does the Psalm 51. The writer is referring to himself, not all of mankind.

quote:

---

What other explanation is there that God would require a sin offering if it didnt have anything to do with sin?

---

Remember, God didn't require sin offerings. Jeremiah 7:32

quote:

---

If you really believe that there is a 'spirit behind the law', then you might need to look a little harder for it.

---

There's always a spirit or reason behind a law. Sometimes these get lost over time and people manipulate the law (such as lawyers) by zeroing in on the letter of the law.I'm going to answer Message 203 here instead of wasting another post on your feigned density.

quote:

---

I should have been more specific... What laws did Abel or Noah or Abraham abide by? What civilisation did they belong to?

---

Did you read through the OT?
They belonged to the civilizations that governed them.
They abided by the laws of those civilizations. Ancient Law CodesIt's in your ball court to show me that the world had no rules, or laws what so ever before Moses received the commandments.BTW, what does this have to do with the lack of Christian laws?Edited by purpledawn, : Msg #

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

quote:

---

purpledawn, the bible was written for ALL of mankind, the psalmists were writing under inspiritation as a means of teaching through songs. Have you never heard of a song that teach's important lessons to those who hear it.

​

The american national anthem was written a long time ago, do you assume it was only intended for those who wrote it?

---

Your rationale really amazes me. The writers of the Bible were not writing for all mankind. They wrote for their time and their audience.

quote:

---

You may need to read the context of Jeremiah 7. This is talking about 'human' sacrifices, not animal sacrifices. It seems that some Israelites had adopted this demonic practice from the cannanites.

---

Sorry, typo. It should have been 7:22.The writer of our national anthem, Francis Scott Key, wrote a poem in 1814 entitled "Defence of Fort McHenry". He wrote it for his time and for his audience. He wrote about what he'd witnessed. He didn't write it to be used as the national anthem.It wasn't made our national anthem by congressional resolution until 1931. We don't sing the whole poem either. Although I've sung the song, I've never seen the American flag at dawn after a battle. I've never watched o'er the ramparts and I've never watched bombs bursting in air. The song cratively depicts a specific incidence.The writings in the Bible were written for a specific group at a specific time. Not for the future.The writer of the psalm says "I". It is his prayer to God. It is from his life experiences. It does not support your point and neither does our national anthem.

quote:

---

You may need to read the context of Jeremiah 7. This is talking about 'human' sacrifices, not animal sacrifices. It seems that some Israelites had adopted this demonic practice from the cannanites.

---

Sorry, typo. It should have been 7:22.

quote:

---

You really would do well to read these scriptures in context.

---

I always love it when the pot calls the kettle black.

quote:

---

tell me first what civilisation noah was governed by and i will tell you what it has to do with christian laws.

---

Now we narrowed it down to Noah. You could acknowledge that the others were governed by laws.Noah was part of the civilization of his time. The Bible doesn't identify specific cities. For God to deem the population evil, there had to be standards by which to judge. Noah was found righteous in his time, among his people. Don't ask this question again.So what has this to do with the Christian laws you are unable to list?

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

quote:

---

Then explain why God told Abraham at Gen 22:18 " by means of your seed all nations of the earth will certainly bless themselves due to the fact that you have listened to my voice."

---

You mean why the writer had God tell Abraham that. The story deals with the beginning of the chosen people. The writer is not talking about his future. The writer is writing about the past and referring to his present.

quote:

---

Obedience was more important then sacrifices. But this in no way means that the sacrifices were not instituted at Gods direction. They certainly were and sacrifices to God began long before the mosaic law did. You may recall that Able offered to God a sacrifice of greater value then Cain did.
Also Abraham 'as good as offered up Isaac' when he was tested.

---

Exactly! Obedience was more important than sacrifices. I agree sacrifices started long before the Levitical Laws and in areas not related to the Hebrews. Show me that God instituted sacrifices for wrong behavior before the Levicital Laws. Most sacrifices were an offering of thanks or dealt with contracts/covenants. They weren't necessarily required. According to Jeremiah God did not give them commands concerning burnt offering and sacrifice after they left Egypt.Again what does this have to do with the Christian laws you haven't been able to list?

quote:

---

to help you out a bit, Noah, Abraham, Jacob and Isaac etc lived under a 'Patriarchal' system. Look up what the patriarchal system was all about and i'll answer your question.

---

I'm quite aware what a patriarchal system entails, and I agree the systems these men were under were probably patriarchal. So what's your point? Oddly enough, the A&E story may have been from a more matriarchal time. Notice man is to leave his family and cleave to the woman. But when we read the rest of the Bible, the women actually leave their family to join the man's family. The snake may have approached the woman because she was the leader, not the weak link. The man ate the fruit without question. Just food for thought.I agree that the cultures within the Bible were patriarchal. That doesn't mean there weren't any rules.So what is the point concerning the Christian Laws you haven't been able to list?

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Do you plan on blowing out the rest of the thread on an off topic discussion with jaywill or are you going to explain your point concerning Christian laws? Message 215Edited by purpledawn, : SubtitleEdited by purpledawn, : Msg #

quote:

---

You seem to be of the opinion that we only need to obey the laws of the land in order to be approved by God.

---

Not what I said. I contend that like Hillel before him, Jesus brought a more humane and universal notion of Torah interpretation. The spirit of the law as opposed to the letter of the law. If one gets the spirit right, the details will take care of themselves.We look at what the authors in the Bible are trying to tell their audience and bring that spirit forward when obeying the laws of our own individual nations all the way down to our communities and families.There are no Christian laws, there are only Christian principles derived from the spirit of the ancient writings and the experiences of people who have gone before. (Message 114)I have not implied "only". We aren't talking about the means to salvation.Christianity presents the idea that believers are not under "law" to be counted righteous, but one must follow "law" to show faith. (Message 160)Peg, you have also presented this idea as I showed in (Message 6). We are discussing the required behavior necessary for a Christian to show faith. As shown above, you stated that one must follow God's laws in order to obtain righteous standing.As I said to jaywill in Message 164, I want to know what specific behaviors or actions are required by Christians to manifest their faith in God?In Message 180, I stated: Now both of you are hung up on the "being deemed righteous issue". Not once have I asked for the list of laws that will make one righteous before God. You are the one who says we must follow God's laws. Even Jaywill's quote says we still aren't allowed to be lawless and disobedient.Keep up please. So far you've shown me that we are to be following Mosaic and Jewish Law.

quote:

---

The point about Patriarchal societies was that they were governed, not by laws of the land, but by Gods laws. Before human societies were organized with self appointed rulers, they were governed by the family head under Gods laws.

---

Sorry, patriarchy doesn't automatically mean the laws are from a god.

quote:

---

What this shows is that it is obedience to Gods laws that make one acceptable to God. The laws of man originally came from God. Sadly man has not maintained laws that meet the standards that God set which is why you cannot rely on them alone for Gods approval.

---

Your mythology again.

quote:

---

The nations carry on wars where killing is required. God does not approve of this.

---

Have you read the OT?

quote:

---

The nations have made abortion illegal, this is clearly in violation of Gods law for according to the bible, life begins at conception which is why the mosaic law required life for life in the case of someone injuring a pregnant woman and her suffering a miscarriage.

---

Exodus 21 doesn't support your position. See you aren't following the law as written, you are trying to understand the point and apply it to the laws we have today. Personally, I think you missed the point.

quote:

---

This is why the mosaic laws are still relevant, although not a requirement for christians.

---

Back to the beginning. The Mosaic Laws are still relevant, but not required. Make up your mind!You are essentially saying the same thing I've been saying.We look at what the authors in the Bible are trying to tell their audience and bring that spirit forward when obeying the laws of our own individual nations all the way down to our communities and families.There are no Christian laws, there are only Christian principles derived from the spirit of the ancient writings and the experiences of people who have gone before.You haven't shown me otherwise.

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

quote:

---

PD writes:

​

There are no Christian laws, there are only Christian principles derived from the spirit of the ancient writings and the experiences of people who have gone before.

Can you trace these all back to their Old Testament legal roots?

---

This thread concerns behavior.These verses are preaching, not specific behaviors allowed or not allowed.2 Peter 1:4 - " ... you might become partakers of the divine nature ..."
1 John 3:9 - "Everyone who has been begotten of God does not practice sin,...
Eph.15,16 - "But holding to truth in love, we may grow into Him in all things, who is the Head Christ, our from whom all the Body,...
Gal. 4:19 - "My children, with whom I travail again in birth until Christ is formed in you."
2 Cor. 3:18 - "But we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed...
John 6:53,54 - "Jesus therefore said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood...These two deal with stopping wrong behavior as outlined at that time by the Jewish Laws and starting right behavior also outlined by Jewish Law of the time.Rom. 13:14 - " ... put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh to [fulfill its] lusts" Eph. 4:24 - "And put on the new man, which was created according to God in righteousness and holiness of the truth."

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

quote:

---

I thought it also concerns Christian principles. You said in essence "no laws, only Christian principles are in the NT. And they are in the spirit of the OT Law and advance them forward."

---

Actually I said: I am referring to the present, not the NT. Again we are dealing with actual behaviors not creative concepts.ABE: This discussion has shown that the behaviors required in the NT followed Jewish Laws.

quote:

---

Each of these prinicples I mentioned effects behaviors. And note, I only asked you to indentify the OT laws being brought forward in these Christian principles.

---

Again we are talking about actual behaviors, not what effects behaviors. If this was a true statement we wouldn't be having this discussion.They all go back to stopping wrong behavior (repent) and starting right behavior, which is what the OT also expects.What this thread is supposed to be listing are what is considered specific right behavior for Christians, not the creative writings skills of the writers used to influence their audience.Edited by purpledawn, : ABE

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

quote:

---

"In Him was life, and the life was the light of men." (John 1:4)

​

The implied exhortation is that we should enter into the realm of His life, His Person and His presence. Then His life which is the light of men would be our light also.

​

The receiving of Christ is the receiving of "the true light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man." (v.9)

---

But how is this manifested in reality and day to day living which is what we are talking about in this thread?

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

quote:

---

Our attitudes, tastes, and actions begin to take on more and more the personality Christ.

---

Actual manifestation today please!

quote:

---

At the same time He is very gentle. The symbol of the Holy Spirit in Bible is a dove. He never coerces. He never usurps the human will. But like power steering compounds more power to a simnple human action of turning the steering wheel, so we are empowered by His grace as we abide in Him.

---

That is not the face of Christianity today. Christianity is very much about coercion. The dove is irrelevant.So a Christian should not be blowing up abortion clinics, or killing abortion doctors. A Christian should not be knocking on my door selling religion. I shouldn't see billboards advertising Christianity.What you say and what we see in reality aren't the same.

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz