Christian Laws

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I never mentioned Christianity.

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Christianity is not a living entity. Christianity is made up of Christians. So when we talk about what Christians are supposed to do, we look at what is taught within the Christian religion, Christianity.I'm not interested in what you personally do. This thread is looking at what behavior all Christians will be held accountable for.Like Hillel before him, Jesus brought a more humane and universal notion of Torah interpretation. The spirit of the law as opposed to the letter of the law. If one gets the spirit right, the details will take care of themselves.We look at what the authors are trying to tell their audience and bring that spirit forward when obeying the laws of our own individual nations all the way down to our communities and families.There are no Christian laws, there are only Christian principles derived from the spirit of the ancient writings and the experiences of people who have gone before. (Message 114)

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I think you are prone to follow media hype. You are upset and angered.

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The media doesn't necessarily show reality. I don't put much stock into the news media.

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Maybe I have had even more reason to be turned off.

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Don't fret. You don't have any influence on me. Just remember, it's dogma I battle; not God.

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And we feel victorious. We're not going to lay down and die because some nut case blew up a clinic. You don't trash Evolution because some highschool kids without a sense of meaning to human life shot up their fellows students at Columbine.

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You implied in Message 229 that one who accepts Christ will be changed. Their attitudes, tastes, and actions will change and take on the personality of Christ. Then you gave characteristics of Jesus: These characteristics are not evident in all Christians.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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In this topic I take "Christians principles" or even your usage of the phrase Christian laws" to mean what the Christian Gospel teaches.

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The phrase "Christian Laws" is not mine, it is Peg's. One would think that Christian principles or Christian Laws would come from the Gospels. A principle is still a rule or code of conduct. I'm still waiting for the list.

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To understand what Christians should do we should look to what the New Testament teaches.

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Which is what I have been saying. Message 114What you and Peg have not been able to show is what specifically Christians are held accountable to without using catch phrases and metaphors. Straight talk. That's what I asked for in Message 228.

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What the New Testament teaches seems secondary to you. For your purpose of discrediting the Gospel you desire to look at what religious people do as an "anity" focusing on the media's sensational leading stories of violent activism.

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You know better than that and you know that what I stated in Message 230 was not focusing on media sensationalism. I was addressing your implication in Message 229 that coercion should not part of the Christian character. Reality shows otherwise. You still haven't shown clearly what behaviors or actions Christians will be held accountable for.

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Yes, you have said that. And I agree somewhat. But I gave you several cases which you apparently were not too easily able to show were "carried forward" Old Testament laws.

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Because they were either creative expressions or beliefs, not addressing specific requirements of behavior other than repentance which is in the OT. Message 224You didn't show that the verses actually referred to specific actions.

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Paul labored with them because they had been "bewitched". They had evilly been distracted from the Gospel of grace and were being cheated into going back to Old Covenant Law keeping in the strength of thier flesh. Paul was trying to bring them into walking by the Spirit. And he labored to have Christ formed in them. That is the living and resurrected Jesus imparting His own available nature and Person into them, taking shape, devloping, maturing, and comforming them to His own image.

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That is what the NT teaches.

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Still catch phrases and metaphors. Translate that into practical application, real actions that all Christians are held accountable for.

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That is a slight improvement over looking at the shooting of a man at a clinic and claiming and implying that this is a norm for Christian behavior.

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However, I gave you several principles taught in the New Testament and you seemed unable or unclear about locating what Old Testament laws were being brought forth.

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Again you know better than that. I didn't claim it was a norm for Christian behavior, but that it shows along with the other examples, that coercion is promoted within Christianity and manifests in different ways. So if one requirement is not to coerce others, then many Christians are out of line. Where is it alluded to in the NT that one must not coerce?

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That is true, if they grow. So many parables of Christ teach this. The parable of the sower and the different kinds of soil in Matthew 13:1-23 teaches that the heart the receives the word of the kingdom of the heavens needs cultivation.

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That verse has nothing to do with behavior expected of those who already believe.Take a 50 year old Christian who grew up in the Christian way of life and never strayed. What behaviors or actions will that Christian manifest to show faith in God? What behaviors or actions will that Christian be held accountable for on judgment day?As Peg said and I quoted in Message 6: The point of this thread is to list those laws/principles clearly and explain why they are laws or principles for Christians. So far, everything listed seems to come from the Mosaic or Jewish laws.

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Yet you could not identify what laws were being brought forward in several cases that I asked you about. So you really haven't proved your case in those instances. I could probably mention many more.

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Why have you not been able to demonstrate what Old Testament law was being brought forward? You could simply admit that you cannot find them.

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As I said in Message 224, this thread concerns behavior. The verses you provided didn't deal with specific behaviors.List the behaviors or actions that are associated with the verses you provided and then I can tell if they were brought forward from the Jewish laws or not. Below are the verses you provided. The other two deal with repentance or stopping wrong behavior and doing right behavior. Not a new concept. But these don't address specific behaviors or actions.For one to repent or throw off the old and put on the new, one has to know what is considered right and what is considered wrong. That is the point of this thread. Please keep on track.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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The law is called the testimony of God, and, by inscribing His laws into our hearts and on our minds, He is making us into His expression.

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Please list the laws that are inscribed on the hearts of Christian believers.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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I don't know what could be straighter than the clear warnings that certain continued behaviors will cause a Christian not to inherit the kingdom of God in Galatians 5:19-21 which is followed by positive behaviors which are taught to be "the fruit of the Spirit" (Gal. 5:22-25).

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And yet neither you nor Peg has listed anything from Galatians 5:19-25. The word for witchcraft is pharmakeia which also refers to the administering of drugs.To understand what is expected of us today, we have to understand what specific actions Paul was referring to. These are still general references and not specific.From what I've read of the OT the acts of the sinful nature listed weren't allowed by the Jewish Laws. Paul brings these forward.Straight talk means to stop using vague references, metaphors and catch phrases that are subjective and be specific about the behavior or action required.

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Disingenous. Again I listed many principles which you have been unable to trace back to Mosaic laws. Instead of doing so you either move the goal post, complain that they are not related to behacior (a false objection), complain that metaphors are not straight talk enough, or some other dodge.

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Then we are at an impasse. I don't see specific behaviors or actions listed in those verses. So I can't address them and you aren't able to present the actions as a practical application I can recognize. Message 6

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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As far as Galatians is concerned, this epistle is written to the Christian disciples in the province of Galatia. It is NOT addressed to society in general in Galatia.

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The "fruits of the Spirit" is only possible to those who have received the Spirit. That would be the those who have received Christ.

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The fruits of the Spirit are not demanded of Galatian society as a whole. The Galatians unbelievers first have to receive the indwelling Christ, the Spirit, and be regenerated.

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Then the exhortations would apply to them.

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I said before that this thread is not concerning non Christians. This is about Christian Laws or code of conduct for Christians. Not anyone else.

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Paul was trying to teach the behavior which overflows as a by- product of walking by the Spirit.

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I'm quite familiar with Paul's intent.Paul still expected a code of conduct from believers. How he went about teaching them is not the issue.This thread is about the actual conduct (the act, manner, or process of carrying on) of the person. IOW, after all the teachings what code of conduct (a mode or standard of personal behavior especially as based on moral principles) will the person be held accountable to?This isn't about salvation. This thread is based on Peg's statement.

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You don't understand what the New Testament means by the behavior of abiding in Christ Who is alive and available.

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Yes I do, but it has nothing to do with this thread. What enables one to follow the code of conduct is irrelevant.The code of conduct that shows that one has faith in God is the issue.

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what did i say in the first sentence of my OP?

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"Unlike the Mosaic Law, the Christian laws are not given as one continuous list of laws. They are found throughout the writings of the NT in discussions and discourses given by the Apostles"

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If you want to learn those laws you need to read the NT and accept that the writings of the apostles are in fact the writings of the apostles and are also inspired of God.

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If you dont believe the writings of the NT to hold any authority, then its understandable why you are still asking the question.

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Do you trust the writings of the NT enough to believe that the principles and laws stated therein are what Christians need to abide

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And what did I say in Message 6That doesn't mean you can't make a list.

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Of course they are general references because Paul spoke in terms of 'principles'. This is because not everbody had the same practices, and there are some practices from ancient times that are not around today, so for Gods word to apply to all mankind, it could not be too specific.

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That's essentially what I concluded in Message 114, but you disagree with that conclusion.

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So this is why christian laws are much broader then a mere 'do this dont do that'. The christian must live by conscience, showing Gods laws to be on his heart rather then live by a set of do's and dont's. Remember the Isrealites had that list and it was a dismal failure becuase a law is only good if its applied. If people dont apply them then what good are they?

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The Jewish Laws weren't a "dismal" failure. They were the legal system for that nation and culture and had good and bad points just like any legal system. The laws changed and adjusted as the nation/culture changed.Paul's argument concerning the law dealt with gaining salvation, I'm not asking about behavior as a means to salvation.

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Perhaps you should consider trying to answer that. Or you could reconsider your underlying argument that all Christians principles are only Old Testament laws being brought forward Hillel style.

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That's not what I said in Message 114. You two do realize that the ancient writings includes the NT writers don't you?

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PD, have you collated your own list of laws from the NT?

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Remember, my position is that there aren't any Christian Laws. Christianity does not have a legal system.Jesus and his disciples followed Jewish Law and whatever Roman Laws that applied. Members of The Way, followed Jewish Law and whatever Roman Laws that applied.Paul followed Jewish and Roman Laws.Greek Christians followed the laws of the land that applied to them. I assume Roman Laws.These are all legal systems they were required to follow.You are the one who said: To show faith in God, one must adopt HIS laws....or better put, live as he directs. Message 6The list is yours to provide, not mine.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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so here they are before the highest law court in the land, they've been given an order to stop preaching, Yet they refuse to obey

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Do you really believe they viewed mans law (law of the land) above Gods law?

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You did read more than that sentence I hope.The verse isn't dealing with laws. The story does not imply that the apostles broke any local laws. The apostles were ordered by the members of the Sanhedrin to not teach in Jesus' name. The angel of the Lord who freed them from jail told them to continue teaching. So they had a choice of obeying God's orders delivered by the angel or the Sanhedrin.I think it is a common understanding that a direct order from God overrides everything, even his own commands. Although God made it clear in Genesis that man should not kill man (Genesis 9:6), God ordered Abraham to offer Isaac as a burnt offering (Genesis 22), which means Abraham would have had to kill his son to comply. Granted, God reversed the order, but the original order contradicted his earlier command.As I said, the verse isn't dealing with laws Man's or God's.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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are you saying that when a court produces an order, ie a 'court order', the recipient is not required by law to comply with the order?

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No, I'm saying the point of the ancient story up to that point was not about any legal system. It was not about man's laws vs God's laws. It was about who is in charge.God commanded them to teach. He didn't give them a new law.I think, from the plain text, the point of the whole story was that the apostles were persecuted.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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'we must obey God as ruler rather then man' is what they said.

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As I said, the story is about who is in charge.The Sadducees were disturbed by what the Apostles were preaching (Chapter 4) and they were jealous (Chapter 5). The story doesn't say they broke a law. They followed God's direct order and not the Sadducees.Now since God is ruler, then Christians would only be following those laws that came directly from God, not inspired known and unknown authors who don't claim to be messengers of God.

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Later the romans made christianity 'illegal' and outlawed the religion in throughout the whole roman empire...they were burning people alive for being christian because it was a capital offense.

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do you think that the christians obeyed that law of the land?

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No, they didn't if the law required them to get special approval or a license from the government. Paul says Chritians are to obey authorities. So it seems Christians are free to disobey authorities when they feel they have a direct order from God.Of course this thread isn't about whether God's laws are more important than man's laws. Your task is to list Christian Laws or God's Laws. If God's laws are more important then you should know what they are.Why the difficulty?

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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but these Sadducees, who were in charge and were the lawmakers, made the order for the apostles to stop preaching about jesus. This is why Paul spent over 3 years in jail.

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I'm addressing a specific story you referenced with a question. The story in Acts does not include Paul. Again the issue of the story is about who is in charge and persecution, not the legal system. Through the angel, the apostles were given an order from God. They weren't referring to a law.

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So now there was a law that the Apostles were breaking. You keep saying that christians were only required to follow the laws of the land....as I said before, the laws of the land are to be followed ONLY when they do not contradict Gods laws.

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Then we must know what laws are actually God's! List them!In Message 256 I didn't speak of what they were only required to do for God, I spoke of what they seemed to do in practical application per the NT authors. IOW, day to day living.From what you have shown so far, I still contend that Christianity today does not have a legal system. Specifically from Message 114: There are no Christian laws, there are only Christian principles derived from the spirit of the ancient writings and the experiences of people who have gone before.People, whether part of a religion or religion free, are required to follow the laws of the their country or countries they visit. How those laws are made vary by country. Christians should be pulling their principles of behavior from the spirit of the Bible writers. Specifically from Message 114: We look at what the authors are trying to tell their audience and bring that spirit forward when obeying the laws of our own individual nations all the way down to our communities and families.Since mankind changes and civilizations evolve, the spirit of the message is the most that can be applied to current situations. The letter of ancient laws don't automatically fit into a current culture. Even the laws of early America don't necessarily fit current American culture. Laws are constantly changing to adjust to the needs of a changing society.

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therefore Christians must have had their own laws...otherwise why is Paul disobeying the law of the land?

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Provide the verse that deals with Paul's issue and I'll address it.

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there is no difficulty for me...im quite aware of what the laws are. I've even stated many of them which you've doubted to be laws.

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Some were Jewish laws and other were just general principles. You haven't been able to show why something is a legal law of God.

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So firstly, you dont trust the authority of the bible writers. So why would you accept anything they say...perhaps this is why you dont accept the scriptures as a basis for christian laws?

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Some Bible writers had authority to make laws and some didn't. So explain why these authors, known and unknown, have the authority to make a legal law? Inspiration is not authority.

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secondly, you've said that principles and standards are not laws in themsleves. However, i've stated that Jesus taught the principles behind the mosaic laws. This means that when he expounded the meanings of the mosaic laws, and made principles out of them, those principles have laws as their foundation. Therefore the principle is a law because it is derived from Gods laws.

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That's per the dictionary, not me. Message 6
I agree that Jesus taught the spirit behind the Jewish Laws as I've been saying: Like Hillel before him, Jesus brought a more humane and universal notion of Torah interpretation. The spirit of the law as opposed to the letter of the law. If one gets the spirit right, the details will take care of themselves. Message 114A principle based on a law doesn't automatically make the principle a law.Love you neighbor as yourself is supposedly the spirit of the Mosaic Laws, which are the details or the letter.If that principle is now a law, what then are the details or the letter?Do we then go back to the ancient laws for the details?Whether you like it or not a legal system does need to be specific so that all are clear on what is expected. No guesswork. Love is not specific. Abiding is not specific.Of we hope that we got the spirit right considering the writings are centuries old, tampered with, translated from dead languages, etc.

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and thirdly, Yes, we are told to obey the laws of the land, but not if they contradict Gods laws. The laws of the land are not the standard for a christian to gain Gods favor. Nor will be be judged by our obedience to the laws of the land.
We will be judged by our obedience to Gods laws.

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And now we are back to the beginning. I've said several times, this isn't about gaining God's favor. This is about your last sentence in the quote: We will be judged by our obedience to God's Laws. I've been asking you to list the laws that Christians will be judge against and explain why they are God's laws as opposed to anyone elses.

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The only place you'll find them is in the scriptures, so if you dont accept the scriptures as authoritative enough, then I cant tell you any more because all of my posts are based on the scriptures which you do not accept as authoritative.

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Not a good excuse for not listing the laws.

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you separate the two because you dont accept that the writers were inspired, right?

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I've agreed wholeheartedly that writers are inspired, but inspiration is not dictation and the NT writers were not considered scripture if you are referring to the 2 Tim comment concerning inspiration.So either you believe what the writers said or you don't.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

A law: a binding custom or practice of a community : a rule of conduct or action prescribed or formally recognized as binding or enforced by a controlling authority Message 6A command: 1 a: an order given
a: the ability to control: mastery b: the authority or right to command c (1): the power to dominateA commandment: 1: the act or power of commanding
2: something that is commandedA law may be a commandment, but a commandment isn't automatically a law.

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purpledawn writes:

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Then we must know what laws are actually God's! List them!

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i already provided several of them in Message 1.

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But you haven't given clear support that they are legal laws and that they are from God.1. John 13:34 - Message 6
2. Galatians 6:2 - Message 12 3. 1 John 4:21 - Message 13
4. 1 John 3:23 - Message 135. Matt 28:18 - Message 13 6. Eph 5:33 - Message 16 7. Acts 15:28 Message 158. Eph 4:29 - Message 16 (Same as #6.)9. Romans 13:13 - Message 16 10. 1 Timothy 3:3-12 - Message 16 None of these writers claim to speak for God.
What makes these legal laws for every Christian today and what shows that they are from God?

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz