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Member (Idle past 4960 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Christian Laws | |||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Christianity is not a living entity. Christianity is made up of Christians. So when we talk about what Christians are supposed to do, we look at what is taught within the Christian religion, Christianity. I'm not interested in what you personally do. This thread is looking at what behavior all Christians will be held accountable for. Like Hillel before him, Jesus brought a more humane and universal notion of Torah interpretation. The spirit of the law as opposed to the letter of the law. If one gets the spirit right, the details will take care of themselves. We look at what the authors are trying to tell their audience and bring that spirit forward when obeying the laws of our own individual nations all the way down to our communities and families. There are no Christian laws, there are only Christian principles derived from the spirit of the ancient writings and the experiences of people who have gone before. (Message 114)
quote:The media doesn't necessarily show reality. I don't put much stock into the news media. quote:Don't fret. You don't have any influence on me. Just remember, it's dogma I battle; not God. quote:You implied in Message 229 that one who accepts Christ will be changed. Their attitudes, tastes, and actions will change and take on the personality of Christ. Then you gave characteristics of Jesus: At the same time He is very gentle. The symbol of the Holy Spirit in Bible is a dove. He never coerces. He never usurps the human will. But like power steering compounds more power to a simnple human action of turning the steering wheel, so we are empowered by His grace as we abide in Him. These characteristics are not evident in all Christians. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:The phrase "Christian Laws" is not mine, it is Peg's. One would think that Christian principles or Christian Laws would come from the Gospels. A principle is still a rule or code of conduct. I'm still waiting for the list. quote:Which is what I have been saying. Message 114 What you and Peg have not been able to show is what specifically Christians are held accountable to without using catch phrases and metaphors. Straight talk. That's what I asked for in Message 228.
quote:You know better than that and you know that what I stated in Message 230 was not focusing on media sensationalism. I was addressing your implication in Message 229 that coercion should not part of the Christian character. Reality shows otherwise. You still haven't shown clearly what behaviors or actions Christians will be held accountable for. quote:Because they were either creative expressions or beliefs, not addressing specific requirements of behavior other than repentance which is in the OT. Message 224 You didn't show that the verses actually referred to specific actions.
quote:Still catch phrases and metaphors. Translate that into practical application, real actions that all Christians are held accountable for. quote:Again you know better than that. I didn't claim it was a norm for Christian behavior, but that it shows along with the other examples, that coercion is promoted within Christianity and manifests in different ways. So if one requirement is not to coerce others, then many Christians are out of line. Where is it alluded to in the NT that one must not coerce? quote:That verse has nothing to do with behavior expected of those who already believe. Take a 50 year old Christian who grew up in the Christian way of life and never strayed. What behaviors or actions will that Christian manifest to show faith in God? What behaviors or actions will that Christian be held accountable for on judgment day? As Peg said and I quoted in Message 6:
Peg writes: To show faith in God, one must adopt HIS laws....or better put, live as he directs. The point of this thread is to list those laws/principles clearly and explain why they are laws or principles for Christians. So far, everything listed seems to come from the Mosaic or Jewish laws.
quote:As I said in Message 224, this thread concerns behavior. The verses you provided didn't deal with specific behaviors. List the behaviors or actions that are associated with the verses you provided and then I can tell if they were brought forward from the Jewish laws or not. Below are the verses you provided.
Jaywill writes: 2 Peter 1:4 - " ... you might become partakers of the divine nature ..."1 John 3:9 - "Everyone who has been begotten of God does not practice sin,... Eph.15,16 - "But holding to truth in love, we may grow into Him in all things, who is the Head Christ, our from whom all the Body,... Gal. 4:19 - "My children, with whom I travail again in birth until Christ is formed in you." 2 Cor. 3:18 - "But we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed... John 6:53,54 - "Jesus therefore said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood... The other two deal with repentance or stopping wrong behavior and doing right behavior. Not a new concept.
Jaywill writes: Rom. 13:14 - " ... put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh to [fulfill its] lusts"Eph. 4:24 - "And put on the new man, which was created according to God in righteousness and holiness of the truth." But these don't address specific behaviors or actions. For one to repent or throw off the old and put on the new, one has to know what is considered right and what is considered wrong. That is the point of this thread. Please keep on track. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Please list the laws that are inscribed on the hearts of Christian believers. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:And yet neither you nor Peg has listed anything from Galatians 5:19-25. The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the spirit, let us keep in step with the spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. The word for witchcraft is pharmakeia which also refers to the administering of drugs. To understand what is expected of us today, we have to understand what specific actions Paul was referring to. These are still general references and not specific. From what I've read of the OT the acts of the sinful nature listed weren't allowed by the Jewish Laws. Paul brings these forward. Straight talk means to stop using vague references, metaphors and catch phrases that are subjective and be specific about the behavior or action required.
quote:Then we are at an impasse. I don't see specific behaviors or actions listed in those verses. So I can't address them and you aren't able to present the actions as a practical application I can recognize. Message 6 "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:I said before that this thread is not concerning non Christians. This is about Christian Laws or code of conduct for Christians. Not anyone else. quote:I'm quite familiar with Paul's intent. Paul still expected a code of conduct from believers. How he went about teaching them is not the issue. This thread is about the actual conduct (the act, manner, or process of carrying on) of the person. IOW, after all the teachings what code of conduct (a mode or standard of personal behavior especially as based on moral principles) will the person be held accountable to? This isn't about salvation. This thread is based on Peg's statement.
quote:Yes I do, but it has nothing to do with this thread. What enables one to follow the code of conduct is irrelevant. The code of conduct that shows that one has faith in God is the issue.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:And what did I say in Message 6 PD writes: I keep asking because Christians can't produce their own standards of behavior and provide support that those standards carry a death penalty from God on judgment day. I keep asking because Christians keep claiming that the Mosaic Law came to and end, but keep holding people up to portions of that law. I keep asking because Christians avoid the issue. That doesn't mean you can't make a list.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:That's essentially what I concluded in Message 114, but you disagree with that conclusion. PD writes: Like Hillel before him, Jesus brought a more humane and universal notion of Torah interpretation. The spirit of the law as opposed to the letter of the law. If one gets the spirit right, the details will take care of themselves. We look at what the authors are trying to tell their audience and bring that spirit forward when obeying the laws of our own individual nations all the way down to our communities and families. There are no Christian laws, there are only Christian principles derived from the spirit of the ancient writings and the experiences of people who have gone before. (Message 114) quote:The Jewish Laws weren't a "dismal" failure. They were the legal system for that nation and culture and had good and bad points just like any legal system. The laws changed and adjusted as the nation/culture changed. Paul's argument concerning the law dealt with gaining salvation, I'm not asking about behavior as a means to salvation.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:That's not what I said in Message 114. PD writes: Like Hillel before him, Jesus brought a more humane and universal notion of Torah interpretation. The spirit of the law as opposed to the letter of the law. If one gets the spirit right, the details will take care of themselves. We look at what the authors are trying to tell their audience and bring that spirit forward when obeying the laws of our own individual nations all the way down to our communities and families. There are no Christian laws, there are only Christian principles derived from the spirit of the ancient writings and the experiences of people who have gone before. You two do realize that the ancient writings includes the NT writers don't you?
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Remember, my position is that there aren't any Christian Laws. Christianity does not have a legal system. Jesus and his disciples followed Jewish Law and whatever Roman Laws that applied. Members of The Way, followed Jewish Law and whatever Roman Laws that applied. Paul followed Jewish and Roman Laws. Greek Christians followed the laws of the land that applied to them. I assume Roman Laws. These are all legal systems they were required to follow. You are the one who said: To show faith in God, one must adopt HIS laws....or better put, live as he directs. Message 6 The list is yours to provide, not mine. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:You did read more than that sentence I hope. The verse isn't dealing with laws. The story does not imply that the apostles broke any local laws. The apostles were ordered by the members of the Sanhedrin to not teach in Jesus' name. The angel of the Lord who freed them from jail told them to continue teaching. So they had a choice of obeying God's orders delivered by the angel or the Sanhedrin. I think it is a common understanding that a direct order from God overrides everything, even his own commands. Although God made it clear in Genesis that man should not kill man (Genesis 9:6), God ordered Abraham to offer Isaac as a burnt offering (Genesis 22), which means Abraham would have had to kill his son to comply. Granted, God reversed the order, but the original order contradicted his earlier command. As I said, the verse isn't dealing with laws Man's or God's. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:No, I'm saying the point of the ancient story up to that point was not about any legal system. It was not about man's laws vs God's laws. It was about who is in charge. God commanded them to teach. He didn't give them a new law. I think, from the plain text, the point of the whole story was that the apostles were persecuted.
Acts 5:42 The apostles left the Sanhedrin, rejoicing because they had been counted worthy of suffering disgrace for the name. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:As I said, the story is about who is in charge. The Sadducees were disturbed by what the Apostles were preaching (Chapter 4) and they were jealous (Chapter 5). The story doesn't say they broke a law. They followed God's direct order and not the Sadducees. Now since God is ruler, then Christians would only be following those laws that came directly from God, not inspired known and unknown authors who don't claim to be messengers of God.
quote:No, they didn't if the law required them to get special approval or a license from the government. How Successful Was Christianity? But the fact is, there is no evidence of any actual law against Christianity anyway until the mid-2nd or early 3rd century. Prior to that, Christians were rarely prosecuted at all, and even when they were, it was for other generic crimes against Rome, not simply for "being Christian." Paul, we are told, ended up before Gallio on a vague charge of soliciting criminal behavior, and is charged as a Jew (Acts 16:20-21). Even Nero had to formally charge Christians with arson to get away with killing them.[6] Even by the early 2nd century, when Pliny the Younger asks the emperor Trajan what the law was against Christians, Trajan replies, "it is not possible to establish anything in general that has a specific form, so to speak." In legal jargon that meant there was no actual law, and so Pliny had to use his own judgment. Hence the only general test Trajan suggests is the same one Pliny came up with on his own even before he knew why Christians were criminals, which is to test whether the accused is a member of an illegal society: first by asking them to renounce this, then--to make sure they are telling the truth--asking them to do something otherwise trivial that he was told members of their association would never do. This means Pliny understood Christianity as already violating existing laws against illegal associations, and therefore no specific law against Christianity was required. Membership in illegal associations was already a capital crime since any formal association required an approval or a special license issued by the government, which sought assurances that the association was not a covertly treasonous movement against the Roman order.[7] Paul says Chritians are to obey authorities. So it seems Christians are free to disobey authorities when they feel they have a direct order from God. Of course this thread isn't about whether God's laws are more important than man's laws. Your task is to list Christian Laws or God's Laws. If God's laws are more important then you should know what they are. Why the difficulty? "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:I'm addressing a specific story you referenced with a question. The story in Acts does not include Paul. Again the issue of the story is about who is in charge and persecution, not the legal system. Through the angel, the apostles were given an order from God. They weren't referring to a law. quote:Then we must know what laws are actually God's! List them! In Message 256 I didn't speak of what they were only required to do for God, I spoke of what they seemed to do in practical application per the NT authors. IOW, day to day living. From what you have shown so far, I still contend that Christianity today does not have a legal system. Specifically from Message 114: There are no Christian laws, there are only Christian principles derived from the spirit of the ancient writings and the experiences of people who have gone before. People, whether part of a religion or religion free, are required to follow the laws of the their country or countries they visit. How those laws are made vary by country. Christians should be pulling their principles of behavior from the spirit of the Bible writers. Specifically from Message 114: We look at what the authors are trying to tell their audience and bring that spirit forward when obeying the laws of our own individual nations all the way down to our communities and families. Since mankind changes and civilizations evolve, the spirit of the message is the most that can be applied to current situations. The letter of ancient laws don't automatically fit into a current culture. Even the laws of early America don't necessarily fit current American culture. Laws are constantly changing to adjust to the needs of a changing society.
quote:Provide the verse that deals with Paul's issue and I'll address it. quote:Some were Jewish laws and other were just general principles. You haven't been able to show why something is a legal law of God. quote:Some Bible writers had authority to make laws and some didn't. So explain why these authors, known and unknown, have the authority to make a legal law? Inspiration is not authority. quote:That's per the dictionary, not me. Message 6 I agree that Jesus taught the spirit behind the Jewish Laws as I've been saying: Like Hillel before him, Jesus brought a more humane and universal notion of Torah interpretation. The spirit of the law as opposed to the letter of the law. If one gets the spirit right, the details will take care of themselves. Message 114 A principle based on a law doesn't automatically make the principle a law. Love you neighbor as yourself is supposedly the spirit of the Mosaic Laws, which are the details or the letter. If that principle is now a law, what then are the details or the letter? Do we then go back to the ancient laws for the details? Whether you like it or not a legal system does need to be specific so that all are clear on what is expected. No guesswork. Love is not specific. Abiding is not specific. Of we hope that we got the spirit right considering the writings are centuries old, tampered with, translated from dead languages, etc.
quote:And now we are back to the beginning. I've said several times, this isn't about gaining God's favor. This is about your last sentence in the quote: We will be judged by our obedience to God's Laws. I've been asking you to list the laws that Christians will be judge against and explain why they are God's laws as opposed to anyone elses. quote:Not a good excuse for not listing the laws. quote:I've agreed wholeheartedly that writers are inspired, but inspiration is not dictation and the NT writers were not considered scripture if you are referring to the 2 Tim comment concerning inspiration. So either you believe what the writers said or you don't. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
A law: a binding custom or practice of a community : a rule of conduct or action prescribed or formally recognized as binding or enforced by a controlling authority Message 6
A command: 1 a: an order givena: the ability to control: mastery b: the authority or right to command c (1): the power to dominate A commandment: 1: the act or power of commanding2: something that is commanded A law may be a commandment, but a commandment isn't automatically a law.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote: But you haven't given clear support that they are legal laws and that they are from God. 1. John 13:34 - Message 6PurpleDawn writes:
1. Jesus is talking to his 11 disciples after Judas left and seems to mean amongst themselves, not necessarily others. 2. The verb "love" as used today carries a more limited meaning ( to hold dear) than the Greek "agapa" seems to carry. (to welcome, to entertain, to be fond of, to love dearly). Christian view of agape: In the New Testament, agap is charitable, selfless, altruistic, and unconditional. It is parental love, seen as creating goodness in the world; it is the way God is seen to love humanity, and it is seen as the kind of love that Christians aspire to have for one another. The Christian version is amongst Christians, not necessarily all mankind.3. We don't really know how Jesus "loved" his disciples. There are no specifics for people to know what they are being judged against. Peg writes: Message 211. Jesus had more then just his 12 apostles as followers. The fact that Jesus commissioned the apostles to teach and baptize shows that it extended to all mankind. 2. The invitation goes out to all mankind. christianity isnt limited to one race. Its for all mankind and its extended to all mankind. 3. At John 15:13 Jesus said "No one has love [agpe] greater than this, that someone should surrender his soul in behalf of his friends. You are my friends if you do what I am commanding you." 2. Galatians 6:2 - Message 12 PurpleDawn writes:
Again you need to be specific. The law of Christ doesn't really mean anything if there isn't really any legal law. There is law of sin, law of death, law of the spirit, etc. These aren't legal laws. This verse seems to refer more to a principle as opposed to an enforcable law. Paul is telling those who are spiritually strong to help those who are not. He said should, not must.Peg writes: Message 22this verse in galatians shows that the 'law of the Christ' is closely aligned with love. 'Go on carrying the burdens of one another' The way they treated each other would determine whether they were fulfilling the Law of Christ or not. 3. 1 John 4:21 - Message 134. 1 John 3:23 - Message 13 PurpleDawn writes: These two fall under the love your neighbor rule. 5. Matt 28:18 - Message 13 PurpleDawn writes:
So what is the law? Jesus gave his disciples a job. This has nothing to do with us. The disciples were supposed to teach people to obey everything Jesus had commanded them. Since the disciples didn't teach Paul, it is hard to say what the disciples taught the Jews or if they did their job.Peg writes: Message 25The job that Jesus gave his diciples was to make more diciples by teaching and baptizing them. All first century christians were evangelizers. Peter said at 2:21In fact, to this [course] YOU were called, because even Christ suffered for YOU, leaving YOU a model for YOU to follow his steps closely. Jesus was primarily a preacher. He taught people about Gods Kingdom. So a follower of Christ would also do this same work of evangelizing. The Apostles role was to teach all the disciples how to be preachers. 6. Eph 5:33 - Message 16 PurpleDawn writes:
Again the love one another scenerio. These, as the others, may be specifications under the love one another verse, but are they to be enforced by God?Peg writes: they certainly will be enforced by God and for good reason.
1 John 4:20, 21 "If anyone makes the statement: 'I love God,' and yet is hating his brother, he is a liar. For he who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot be loving God, whom he has not seen. And this commandment wehave from him, that the one who loves God should be loving his brother also. 7. Acts 15:28 Message 15 8. Eph 4:29 - Message 16 (Same as #6.) 9. Romans 13:13 - Message 16 PurpleDawn writes:
What makes this a legal law?Peg writes: Message 23this is a law because "for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authroities that exist have been established by God." If we refuse to obey the civil authorities, then we are not recognizing the authority God has allowed them to have. However, obedience is conditional. You may recall Jesus words "Pay therefore Caesars things to Caesar, But Gods things to God" Matt 22:15-21 this balances just how much obedience we give to the civil authorities. If a civil authority required something of us that was contrary to Gods laws, then we must 'Obey God as ruler rather then men' Acts 5:27-29... 10. 1 Timothy 3:3-12 - Message 16 PurpleDawn writes:
These are requirements for overseers and deacons in the early churches. What makes it a legal law that people are held account to before God?Peg writes: Message 23notice how 'women' are included in that list....this shows that these requirements are not only for Overseers in the congregation, but for all christians in the congregation. they all were expected to abide by the laws and principles of the faith. None of these writers claim to speak for God.What makes these legal laws for every Christian today and what shows that they are from God? "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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