Spirituality

I don't think that spirituality is nonsense nor that there is no spirit. Both are real.Spirituality involves the human spirit of man. But the human spirit is not the same thing as the human soul. And in we come into this world with a comatose human spirit which is damaged and empaired.The function of the human spirit in the average person is damaged but the detection of the loss of that function many people sense. Different people have different ways of dealing with the sense of the loss of the spiritual function of the human spirit.Some react by denying that there is anything wrong. This is logical. That is if one feels that nothing can be done about the loss of a spiritual sense they may accomodate for that by assuming that the need is illusionary."I obviously cannot do anything about it. So I will count that there is no such need."Others react by misapplying other kinds of experiences to be "spiritual". These are usually soulical experiences which they mistakenly regard as "spiritual". They could be very unusual or parapsychological experiences, for example hypnosis. Such deeper soulical abilities they may mistakenly regard as spiritual experiences.Then others have truly spiritual experiences only because the comotose spirit has been healed and made alive. But in this case it takes time, patience, trial and error, and guidance from God and often from fellow spiritual people, to learn to discriminate between truly spiritual sense and something else.In other words, a new dimension to one's life has been added. But the person is not use to having it and must take a life time to learn to live with something they have never experienced. There is no quick and easy road. There is no shortcut to time and patience to learning to use the enlivened human spirit.An additinal difficulty in learning to live with the awakened spiritual sense is that the human society as a whole is adversee to its existence. So the person who wishes to use their spiritual sense is like a Salmon swimming upstream against the current of the world. Everything about the world is hardwired to flow in the opposite direction - towards the soul and the body of man. Sometimes they may be talking about real spirituality. But this is not all always automatically the case. They may be mistaken. "Mistaken" here means that they are unaware of error are and not being necessarily devious intentionally.However, enlightenment as to the truly spiritual is a moral matter which involves the conscience. And a person may resist what the conscience tells them. In that case a person is willfully ignoring the spiritual to protect the self, preserve some ego realm. I believe that spiritual needs are real needs of the human personality.For example, I was once a young man living in a farmhouse in the country. One autumn night I awoke and crawled out of my bedroom window on to the roof of the house. I observed on a moonlite night the silvery light of beautiful leaves all over the ground. It was really a pleasant and beautiful scene. Yet deep inside I ached because I couldn't understand why such beauty still left me feeling empty and unfulfilled. I thought it should make me happy.I latter came to understand that such a feeling was a sense of something missing in my being. That sense of something missing was the sense of the absence of a functioning spiritual component of my being.Sometimes a person will sense something is missing within them. Sometimes this can be a sense of the absence of an awakened human spirit. Like Jimi Hendrix wrote in a song, in essence:"Will I live tomorrow? I just can't say. All I know is that I don't live today. I feel like I'm living at the bottom of a grave." "I Don't Live Today."Many artists, poets, composers, and others have expressed this exasperated feeling of not quite being fully alive yet alive. Many great works of art capture this sense of something missing about human life. Often times I think it is the sense of the absence of the spiritaual dimension in human life.However, others have other ways of dealing with this sense of "something missing". As I stated before, some people react with skeptical feelings that there is no such problem. "I cannot do anything about it so WHY fret over it. It is better to regard this as nonsense, not real. Everything is exactly as it should be." I don't think that the answer is dispair that the perversion has made it impossible to discuss. I think what you say is true about perverted and religious overtones. But I think discrimination can be developed. One has to be willing to learn. One has to have a teachable attitude. And one has to tolerate patient trial and error. And one has to be accomodating to understand that those with more experience have so relatively and not absolutely. In other words they too may make mistakes.So one has to have an accomodating attitude that few have totally "arrived" at perfect spirituality. Just the same, some help can be rendered by imperfect yet relatively more experienced spiritual people.I am a Christian and much of this is based on Christian experience.One other thing I would mention. As above I said that the human society generally is hardwired to go against the spiritual. Those who have no idea what to make of people who profess a spiritual realm is to broadly catogorize all such under the label "religious".I think "religious" or "religion" is for the most part a socialogical broad brushed term to give the majority of people a way to talk about all manner of real or unreal, true or not true "spiritual" talk. Genuine and non-genuine spiritual usually comes under the world's broad brushed catagorizing of "religious" things.Actually, in many and perhaps most cases, institutionalized religious structures can be opposed to spirituality. Or they may attempt to channel it for its own use. This can be compared to a hand trying to grasp a pool of oil. It just doesn't work because the oil slips through and inbetween the clutching fingers.Controling the spirituality of people is extraordinarily problematic. And often can terribly backfire and cause damage to people and resentments. As a result some people will be discouraged to give up the entire spiritual dimension of life. Others may develop an attitude that it is so intensely personal that it is useless to involve anyone else but one's own self.It is possible however, that genuine spiritual communities emmerge. That is a corporate entity with both personal and collective and cooperative spiritual experience.The link below is to Watchman Nee's book "The Spiritual Man". Only the table of contents of Volume One of this three volume work is included. The chapter on "Spirit, Soul, and Body" I think is helpful. It really should come under that forum of "Bible Study" though. However, IMO the writer was very subjectively and personally experienced in the matter in practical life.http://www.worldinvisible.com/...y/nee/sprtmnv1/1968cont.htmEdited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

It could be that you are paranoid also. I don't want your money. I don't even want to boss you around so as to have "power" over you.Setting aside for a moment what I wrote "sounds like" I'm considering how to convey that the comatose and deadened human spirit is a matter of damage inflicted upon the God created man. This is not the Bible Study room which I usually frequent.I want to consider a little more how I can convey this "damage" matter to be the case. But initially I think some people are suspicious that things are not the way they should be somehow. Most people look around and say "Something is WRONG with humans."I think a more idealistic attitude would be to say nothing at all is wrong with humans. I think the first thing I would attempt with you to demonstrate "damage" or impairment of the spiritual component of man is to try to get you to admit something is wrong with us as we are born into this world. That may not be an easy task.But I would ask you this. How come there are not a lot of books teaching parents how to teach their children to lie? It seems that lying comes with growing up like weeds come with an uncultivated garden. There are some moral problems with people that we really need no effort to learn.The idealist humanist may remark "Well, nothing is wrong. And to suggest that something is sounds like you are power hungry and eager to boss people around like an evil religious leader type."Well, even having that motive would not necessarily mean everything with man is OK. Is there something wrong with people ? Are we functioning as we should ? Does my being a power hungry tyrant make that not true ?I have not explored in this brief response the connection between spirituality and morality. That's a whole another can of angels or worms depending on your point of view.Maybe at this point I could just submit that the human conscience the gateway to the restoration healing of the human spirit.I am not writing a book here but only a internet disussion post. I don't assume that I have adaquately addressed your point. That is one view.My questions would be:1.) After having taped into some form of power/ ability or new realm of consciousness, how do you KNOW that that is truly a spiritual experience ?I gave before the example of hypnotism. I believe that the SOUL of man is more powerful than we realize. We only use a low percentage of the ability of our brain. So some disciplines cultivated around to world DO indeed have methods of taping into latent soulical forces.My opinion is that in many cases these powers or experiences belong in the realm of parapsychology and are latent forces buried in the soul of man. There are varied disciplines in human culture how to unleash latent soul force or mind force.These may not be spiritual experiences necessaily IMO. And often people be quick to attach "God" to these science of the soul / science of the human mind abilities.2.) Why should taping in be normal as breathing? You protest that nothing is wrong. At the same time you assure us that we can tap in to the spiritual.But why is it not simply a passive given if there is no impairment ?
Why then is the flow of the spiritual as natural in man as the heart beat or breathing ?If you were to insist that there were available methods to learn how to breath, I might assume that something is wrong with the normal functioning of something so vital to human life. Do you see this point? We are talking about something very subjective. I agree.There are multitudes of ways of taping into latent soul force. There are also many ways to experience the spiritual. But in this case I believe that if God does not act we have no hope. It is God's willingness to reach out in conjuction with our willingness to reach out, that meet, making the human spiritual possible.I believe that God is willing and eager. This is now the second time you see a motive problem. I would like to inform you that I could also be reactionary.I could for example say that you the hostil and the paranoid may be quick assume a motive of abuse here? Maybe your reaction is an ingrained hostility to ideas of spirituality not consistent with your beliefs.I will try to answer the question of "Who Gets To Decide Anyway?" Its a fair question.At this point I would say that the realm of the spiritual, I think, is not a democracy but a kingdom. Those under spiritual authority may have progressive discernment of the spiritual depending to their submission to the spiritual authority of the spiritual kingdom.As discernment grows, love must also grow proportionately. And the principle of living in the spiritual kingdom is this:To be strict with the self and accomodating with others.The strictness of deciding the truly spiritual to those who have the discernment should first be excersized towards one's own life. It is not to be strict with others and to be merciful towards the self. Rather true spirituality is to first be strict towards the self and accomodating and allowing to others.The sense of the spiritual and pride and arrogance are adverse to one another. The spiritual cannot gloat of thier knowledge. The spiritual are meek and know that they can miss reality at any time easily. There keen insight can encrease. But with this encrease grows a proportional amount of mercy and love towards others.The spiritual has to be exacting towards herself or himself and accomodating for the weakness of others.A truly spiritual person does not delight to be in authority over others. He has not thought of controling others. It is a paradox. A person eager to excercise authority over other people is less likely to have encountered much spirituality deeply. The spiritual experience makes one more dependent upon God.The feeling that God is an arbitrary tyrant, a despot out to limit the highest possibity of man, makes one want to seek independence from God. That is to gain the knowledge so that dependence upon God is not necessary. One can do quite well on one's own, thankyou.This is the briefest of replies to a deep question that involves a lot more discussion. And we are still learners and not experts.And I don't know how much you will permit me to refer to the Bible. There is a lot there about the sense of life and peace:"The mind set on the spirit is life and peace." writes Paul.The sense of the spirit is hard to discribe. I will try. It is a feeling of light, comfort, peace, refreshment, uplifting, easiness, support, bouyancy, encouragement in spite of visible circumstances, joy, uprightness, peace towards God and man.Often times though the sense of the spiritual is not apparent until something has gone wrong. This is like not being able to feel your own body unless there is a problem.You may not feel your teeth until something is wrong and you have a toothache. Often we are not aware of the spiritual because we have learned to live normally in that realm. But if something distracts us and we veer off the spiritual walk, then there is the sense of spiritual darkness, uneasiness, futility, emptiness, death, vanity, weakness, or a strongness to do wrong.So it is a mistake to think one always "feels" the spiritual. She may not until she is out of that realm. Then the feeling of being out of normality arises deep within. I guess this is a question of Who owns the definition of "spiritual"?There is no law against someone saying that hypnosis is a spiritual experience. You cannot be sued for liable for saying that. You cannot be dragged into court for fraud or false advertizment in claiming that hypnosis is "spiritual".So it is not easy for me to answer your question. I would say this. Man has a human spirit that is distinct from the human soul. Spiritual experience involves the use of the human spirit.I think it is possible for many things to occur in the immaterial part of man which do not involve the human spirit.But this is not all. This is not the whole problem. There is another problem. And I think you'll have even more objections to it. But I am convinced of it. What is that?There is not only the problem of mistaking the soulical for the spiritual (and according to no societally inforced legal definitions). But there might also be the problem of evil spiritual forces.For example. Perhaps a witch who practices "white magic" may be dabbling with spiritual forces. But they are evil forces. Now what do I mean by "evil spiritual forces"?For now let me just say this about "evil spiritual forces". These spiritual forces NEVER have man's ultimate benefit in view. They are adverse and hostil to humanity. They may be disquised as good for people, ie. "white magic" as opposed to "black magic". But just the same the end result is bondage to spiritual powers which really have man's destruction in view and not benefit.I am called away at the moment and must continue latter.

I think this is a reactionary prejudicial view.Why I can't I also say "People who talk about taping into your spiritual abilities are by nature greedy power hungry guides. They want your money. They want fame. They want prestiege and thought of as being guides to the uninformed. As soon as you hear someone talk about awakening unused spiritual abilities of which you were unaware, Look out. You are dealing with a power hungry and abusive person."How would you feel if I adopted that attitude ? Would you protest that such a case was ridiculous. Oh ... Oh ... I have evidence ya know. I can point to this guy and that guy. These bad apples represent the whole lot of you. Power hungry charlatons all. You didn't read about it in the news? "Is what's good for the goose good for the gander here ?

So when you speak of "power hungry" and "abusive" people you mean they are acting normally? Why are you bothered about it then?If it is abnormal behavior and harmful, how is it that they chose to be that way ? What is wrong with them that they have the capacity to choose such offensive behavior ?Does your charge of power hungry abusive people indicate something is wrong with such people? When did it happen that they were infected with this degrading tendency?I often ask people who claim that everybody is spiritually and morally quite normal:Do you have a set of keys on you? How many keys do you have on you? Why do you need to keep so many things locked such that you keep keys ? Why not leave everything unlocked ?There is nothing wrong with people. Right? So why are you concerned to keep your things under lock and key ? And why do the people you are concerned with decide to pick up this tendency to take you things that are not locked up, if that is your concern?Isn't this perfectly normal behavior for them to remove from you what you do not have under lock and key? I am a Bible believing person. And the Bible tells me that people are in need of something called regeneration.Why did Jimi Hendrix write that song "I Don't Live Today". This is really strange. Of course he lives today. (That is when he was alive). Why would he say that he feels that he is living at the bottom of a grave ? Why would he say that he is sure that today, though his heart beats and he breaths, he feels like he does NOT have real LIFE ?I consider that complaint in the light of the Bible's teaching that man needs to come to Christ for regeneration. We are discribed as fallen sinners as being "dead in trespasses and sins". It also says that fallen sinners are "alienated from the life of God".That is not merely estranged from knowing something ABOUT God. That is alienated from God's very Life, his Person. I think the NT discription of sinners being "dead in trespasses and sins" and being "alienated from the life of God" is related to the popular song about feeling that one does not truly live today - ie. "I Don't Live Today" I believe that something went wrong with the created man. What is average is not what is normal. Either we were born with a problem or for some reason after birth something went wrong.Now do not jump to a conclusion that because something is wrong with man that there is NOTHING good within man. I believe there is nonetheless something good in man's being. But I beleive we are incomplete like a three dimensional being functioning only on two levels. When I raised children I noticed two things. It became easy for them to lie almost instinctively. And I noticed that their conscience bothered them about lying. This was a real a delimma that needed careful handling IMO.First the behavior seems instinctive. Secondly, there needs to be a remedy for the sense of self condemnation as well as the empowering to stop lying. Regeneration, Redemption through Christ was the answer to both problems. I think in this post I asked you some questions to illustrate the point. I also don't want you to be myopic to assume that because I say man is damaged that I mean there is absolutely nothing good in man.Don't over react. There is also something worthy and good in this damaged and impaired human being. God looked upon all that He created and said "And God saw everything that he had made, and indeed, it was very good." (Genesis 1:31)In spite of the fall of man there is still a good created part of man's being.We may be compared to a radio that has a damaged antenna. The radio waves are there in the air. But the radio has a problem and cannot pick up the signal.Spiritual reality is there in the universe. But the spiritual "antenna" of people born into the world is not functioning. It cannot pick up the signal or substantiate the reality of radio waves.This is an analogy. It is imperfect. I think it can be useful though not a perfect analogy of what I want to say. I hope we can generate some light here and not just heat.
I am sorry if something I wrote was too personal and seemed like an attack on you. I will try to be very careful not to offend you. But I will be frank about man's condition as I see it. I think the idea of babies being defective arouses a sense of unfairness. Who can hold a baby responsible for being defective. The sense of outrage might arise with the thought of the born defect matter.I think the matter of accountability is distinct from the matter of being born "fallen" or with a sinning nature. Some people say that there is an "age of accountability." I do not claim to know when that moment is in everyone's life.However, accountability being on the side for the moment, I stand by the idea that we are damaged. Where are the books teaching people to be dishonorable, or to lie, or to steal, or to lust, or to covet ? There is not need to have "How To ..." books about these things filling the shelves of our libraries because they come NATURALLY.Solomon was a wise man. He wrote:"See, this alone have I found, that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes." (Eccl. 7:29) David was the most noteworthy king of Israel. Even in the last book of the Bible it associates Jesus the Son of God with David, saying that He is the Root and Offspring of David. Nevertheless the adultery and sneaky murder by David against a man whose wife he coveted is exposed with extraordinary candor in the Bible. This horrible thing is not covered but exposed from such a man who was said to be after God's own heart.In Davids humiliation and frustration with his spiritual and moral failure he wrote: In other words David no longer had any trust in himself. His lust, his greed, his coveteousness and willingness to murder were so deep rooted in him as to render him hopeless without God's mercy." I was born with this deeply rooted evil. I don't have a chance to overcome it without the power of God. Even in my apparent actions, though I may appear OK to people, my hidden part harbors evil and foolishness. I need TRUTH to prevail in my secret innermost personality. I came out of my mama's womb with this DESEASE to covet, to have unbridled and greedy lust so as to steal a man's wife, give her a baby, and then sneakily have her husband murdered to save my own embarressment."Sin is deeply ingrained into the fabric of David and me too. I think you have the same problem as all men and women. We were CREATED upright. But somehow we have developed this desperate tendency to seek out schemes and devices to use other people at their expense to spend upon our own greed.I think we need to be saved from this ingrained sinning nature. That is what I am taught in the New Testament. Okay. I make mistakes. Do you also sometimes make mistakes about it?I do not trust myself that I always have it right. So if you know the same way I do then you have to mean you too are a learner and have not arrived at total expertise. If spirituality is totally subjective then it must be an illusion. Then no real spirituality exists.I want to understand the balance between universality and subjectivity. If it is so subjective that it means no more than a person's personal taste, then I doubt that there is real spirituality.People have different tastes for all kinds of foods. But I think eating always involves the stomach. That part is universal. Taste in eating is not so universal that there is no need for the standard human stomach.As most analogies it is not perfect. I could probably labor hard enough to make an exception somewhere. But don't you if you pointed out that certain concepts should be associated with abusive and power hungry actions against people? I thought you were saying that such are badly mistaken. They are not true representations of the spiritual.Or are they? Okay. I will not argue about that.I would like to point out a very useful passage in the New Testament in which the writer tells us that there is the need to divide the soul from the spirit. And the dividing instrument is the word of God: Here the soul of man and the spirit of man are attached closely to each other. There is a need for a dividing asunder by the means of some spiritually sharp "instrument". The word of God, the writer says, is unique in that it is living and operative and able to pierce deep into the person's inner consciousness and separate the two.Then that person can see "Oh, this is the SELF. This on the other hand is the spirit in me." The implication is that before when spirit and soul were stuck together it was hard to discern the difference.Ie. "This is the spiritual" when it was really the self, the soul. Or "This is the self. That is just myself" when in reality it really was the spirit within.We have to be careful here. Noth spirit of man and soul of man are component parts of man. Neither needs to be destroyed. But they need to be discerned through separation. The word of God is the "sword" sharp enough to pierce down into this place where spirit and soul may be discerned and discriminated one from another.That goes a long way to helping us know what is of the spiritual and what is of the self or the soul. I am speaking from a Christian perspective which may not be your perspective. Do you mean that there is no need to learn to "tap in" then ? I thought you were saying that some people are ignorant of this facility.I would think normality would mean that no one was ignorant of this facility and no one needed to be encouraged, let alone trained, to tap into this spiritual component. I see. Thanks for that clarification of your stance.However, I did not mean to imply that the soulish is ALL BAD. No, not at all.The realm of the soulish can be exhilerating, happy, beautiful, even healthy.I am not saying "Soul - ALL Bad!"In my opinion Stile, I think we can say that we are having a wonderful experience, a deep experience, and even a healthy experience just in the realm of the human soul. Okay. But in my experience there are spiritual forces of evil. The spiritual does not put me at peace with these someones. It is warfare.Paul wrote:"For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the world rulers of this darkness, against spiritual forces of evil in the heavenlies." (Eph. 6:12)Not against flesh and blood means that the wrestling of Christian disciples is not against person's with physical bodies. We may have a problem with person's with physical bodies, ie. persecutors. But the behind the scene problem is spiritual forces which are immaterial. These are called "world rulers". That is Satanic authorities of "this darkness".In the argots of pop culture it is like we are in a Matrix and we are unaware. What seems apparent to us is a kind of artificially generated world designed to keep us "in the dark" concerning God. I don't see it that way.I see it more like this. When man was created God established a relationship with man that was subject to man's free will. If he chose, he could terminate certain aspects of this relationship and damage it.This is what happened. And these steps I understand.1.) Man has damaged the relationship established by the Creator of man with God the Creator.2.) Man says "Oh, that is no problem. I'll just fix up what I have damaged."3.) God says in essence to mankind as a whole - "No. You don't understand. You have the ability to mess up the relationship. But make it normal again you cannot. I, God, have to come in and restore what you have destroyed. You have the authority to choose to damage it. And you did. Now that the relationship has been damaged don't think you can fix it. I, God, now have to come in and fix the thing you have messed up. And I only need your willingness to come in and do that. I will not do it against your will or usurp your choice. But upon invitation I will come in and restore what you have damaged."And God is eager and willing to do so. And God has gone to encredible lengths to restore the situation. In fact the restoral surpasses what was there before. Man is lifted to an even higher level of the relationship.To say "We are in no need of God". I am first going to assume that you are not saying with these words "We are not in need of Organized Religion." That I would agree with.I would not agree that we are in no need of God for the spiritual.Now one reason I would say that is because of the teaching of the Person I regard as the foremost "spiritual" human being who has ever walked the earth - Jesus Christ.I think that no one has exeeded the level of spirituality exemplified in the life of Jesus. And He was totally dependent upon His Father. He said He was Son of God. And He could do only what He saw the Father in Him was doing.The final seal to this teaching that He could only do as the Father was doing is His resurrection from the dead. The resurrection of Christ is a vindication that the Father God approved of His dependency of the Son on the Father.This dependency of the Son upon the Father amounts eventually to an incorporation, a mingling of God and man. That is a blending, an interweaving of the Human and the Divine. That is an "organic union" of God and man.Christ demonstrated this dependency and taught that we needed it also. My opinion is that His word on the matter surpasses that of other voices saying that He is wrong.Until someone comes along like Jesus Christ saying "See, I am like Jesus. And I do not need God," I remain persuaded that Christ's word is to be trusted on this one. Well, I would repeat my belief here. I think the realm of the spiritual is not a democracy. It is not an anarchy. It is a kingdom. That is a realm with a King. I need a rest now. And I need to farret out the assumptions of this challenge.After I seperate out the assumptions of what you think I am claiming from what I am trying to say, then maybe I can respond.I want to make my proposal known. I do not want to let you put words in my mouth and make your favorite argument to refute.For example, I worry about your understanding me to believe that God loves believers in Christ and God but does not love unbelievers - "My mommy loves ME better than your mommy loves you." I am concerned with your understanding me to say that God is a respector of persons in that Christ did not love and accomplish redemption for ALL people.ie. "He doesn't LOVE you because you don't believe like I do. Na na !"I am going to try not to put words into your mouth. Before I thought you said "It may concern God but not always. And more people have it without God than do." But now you say something a little different. You say it does not include God at all, anywhere at anytime for anybody.You wrote: Which represents your final thought here? Spirituality CAN include God or spirituality NEVER includes God?I have to discontinue here for now.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Not necessarily because not everyone who believes in God has been regenerated or "born of the Spirit". I said before that the human spirit of the natural man is in a comatose state. I may not have specified that the regeneration or rebirth of the spirit takes place specifically because of the resurrection of Christ from the dead.My reason here is what the apostle Peter writes:"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has regenerated us unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" (1 Pet. 1:3)Regenerated how? That is regenerated THROUGH the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. The deadened or comatose spirit of man is enlivened through and because of Jesus' resurrection from the dead.There a many theists who believe in God. They may have not been regenerated. They may not even beleive that Jesus Christ rose from the dead. Moslems do not believe that Jesus even died in the first place. So they don't believe in Christ's resurrection or any necessity for it.An orthodox Jew certainly believes in God. But he too would see no use for or truth in the resurrection of Jesus from the dead.Now two problems remain. Am I saying that all who have been regenerated in the spirit have a higher sense of conscious? Probably they do. But that by no means insists that they LIVE by that sense. There are born again people who continue to LIVE as carnal people.Just because the sense is higher does not mean that it is manifested in their living.Another problem. Am I saying that only those who KNOW about Jesus can be regenerated? Maybe not. I am not sure. But IGNORANCE is different from unbelief and rejection. That passage of Peter says:" ... who according to His great mercy has regenerated us unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead."Perhaps, it is possible that a severaly retarded person, or a person remote from the knowledge of the Gospel, might not only believe in God but somehow through His mercy be regenerated by Christ in their state of not knowing how to call on the name of Jesus.This is only my speculation. I don't know for sure. But I have heard things which seemed to confirm something like this.What Jesus said was that " ... No one comes to the Father except through Me". I think there is a difference between this and saying "No one comes to the Father except through Christianity". The former is a matter of coming through a living Person. The latter may be coming through a cultural construct.The former implies that if you come to God it will only be because of Jesus Christ.Now to the problem of "Can there be spirituality without God?" I don't think so. Here is my reason for thinking this way.I spoke before about the human spirit being distinct from the human soul. I spoke also about the human spirit of the naturally born person to be in a comatose state - deadened, almost not functioning at all. So the problem is that the spiritual "organ" must be resurrected, or healed, or enlivend, however (in my concept) I may speak of this remedial event.Now the New Testament says that the spirit is LIFE because of righteousness. That is the deadened and comatose human spirit is infused with divine and spiritual life because of righteousness. God is the standard of righteousness. God is the source of spiritual life. God is the uncreated life. Justification is according to God's standard of righteousness. It is not according to our standard.So " ... spirit is life because of righteousness" (Romans 8:10) means that one is declared righeous, justified from sins by God according to God's standard of righteousness. If God does not justify then the human spirit is not enlivened. If the human spirit is not enlivened then it is not spiritual life. Because a man has not yet been justified by God according to God's standard of righteousness, then his human spirit is still in a comatose state and therefore access to the spiritual realm is cut off.The good news is that by receiving Christ into you immediatly "the spirit is life because of righteousness" That is what I believe. Now looking at the whole passage:"But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness."The sinner's justification becomes Christ Himself. His history becomes Christ. What happened to the history of his sins and unrighteousness? They were judged on the cross at Calvary 2000 some years ago when Christ died for Him. Upon receiving Christ his past sins are immediately counted by God as having been thoroughly dealt with on the cross of Christ.It is now as if he has never sinned at all. He has exchanged his sinful history for Christ Himself as his imputed righteousness. And Christ having entered into the heart - the spirit is life because of righteousness.Another way this is put is in John 1:"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to become children of God, to those who believe into His name, who were begotten [born] not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:13)A few points here: " ... who were begotten, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:13)The ones given authority to become children of God are those who receive Christ the Son of God - as many as received Him. It is not as many as received Him and also those who reject Him. So the ones granted to become children of God are the receivers of Christ into their hearts.The authority to become children of God is a matter of a spiritual birth, a begetting - "who were begotten ... of God".
This corresponds to "regenerated unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead". His resurrection facilitates man's new birth in the comatose spirit.The birth, the begetting, the regeneration is NOT of three things:1.) It is not of blood. You cannot receive the regeneration simply because your mother or father was born again. It is not passed on naturally. It is not inherited by natural birth.2.) It is "not of the will of the flesh" . Here I believe that "the flesh" regers to the entire fallen Adamic humanity. The corrupted and damaged fallen man since the disobedience of Adam the first man.3.) It is not [b]"of the will of man". Here this is not the fallen and sinful man but the original good man created by God. Remember that I did say that God looked upon what He created and pronoucned it "very good". Though man is damaged by the fall and sin there is still something good in his created being. But the new birth cannot come about because of this.The new birth of the human spirit is of God and of God's will. So I cannot believe that the normal use of the spirit can take place without the will of God who begets the spirit out of its comatose state. The will of the fallen man cannot cause it. The will of the good created man left in him cannot cause it. And it cannot be inherited because of the spirituality of one's parents.Now a possible caveat. I have never said that the human spirit is totally dead. I have used the term comatose. I think that there is one part of the human spirit that functions some even in the none believer. That is the conscience.So a possible caveat is that any person who has something of a functioning conscience is perhaps, on the outskirts of spirituality. At least her conscience part of the human spirit is still working.As a matter of fact it is through the conscience that one uses the will to decide to receive the Savior so that forgiveness may happen from God.This may be like living near the "event horizon" of spirituality. One is close. But what he does with his will as the word of God convicts the conscience is the gateway to the spiritual richness of fellowship and communion with God.Your premise is that God is not needed at all to be spiritual. But the spiritual realm, I feel, is not an anarchy or a democracy. It is a kingdom with a King. He may be a very gentle King, but a King nonetheless. And the King of the kingdom holds the key to our entrance into that realm. The idea here I believe is that an Atheist can have just as high a feeling as a Theist. I have tried to show that not all Theists are born of the Spirit in their human spirit.I have also mentioned that not all who are born of the Spirit in thier human spirit LIVE as they should in that realm where the regenerated spirit is the most powerful enfluence.I don't think a person with a deadened spirit can touch, taste, and contact God the Holy Spirit.Then I anticipate the objection "Why can't one be spiritual without any Holy Spirit?"My answer right now would be that it is because of two things one can walk in the spiritual realm:1.) His spirit is born of the Holy Spirit"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3:6)The comatose human spirit is born of the Spirit. The small s spirit of man, is regenerated by the capital S Spirit Who is God Himself.2.) The regenerated human spirit is MINGLED and UNITED with the Holy Spirit."He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)Here it is hard for the translators to decide whether Paul meant the human spirit or the Holy Spirit. The answer is that he means the mingled spirit. That is the spirit of man blended with the Spirit Who is God the Holy Spirit. In this union the two spirits, the human small spirit and the Holy Spirit Who is the eternal Spirit are united to be one blended and mingled spirit in the man:"He who is JOINED to the Lord is one spirit"Spirituality is a matter of being JOINED to Christ the Lord. Spirituality is a matter of being JOINED to the Triune God.I'll stop here.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I suppose that the whole matter of seeking for the truth is kind of spiritual - ie. a spiritual search. Certainly profound thoughts have been uttered by all kinds of people seeking for the truth of human life. I'll think about it. I tend to be verbose. So I will not respond to every point you make this time. I understand your point. Lacking in development is not "damage". I AGREE. Immaturity in human life is not being damaged or impaired. I AGREE. But I gave other reasons that the fall of Adam has constituted all people born as sinners and estranged from the life of God.You don't believe in the fall of man. I definitely do. In fact I believe that man was created to head up nature. So when man fell nature also fell. I don't understand everything about this. But the New Testament shows that the revelation of the sons of God is awaited by all creation that creation itself would be freed from vanity into a glorious liberty from decay: The spiritual salvation is implanted into the kernel of the saved. It is working its way from the center to the circumference of man. It will eventually cause the body to be glorified at the second coming of Christ. And creation itself which eagerly awaits the sons of God, will be freed from corruption into a glorious liberty.So to me spirituality is a process which must culminate in the revelation of the sons of God and the release of creation. When Man fell the creation fell. When man is recovered to sonship creation is restored. This is what the Bible teaches.It is far from a matter of just my personal spiritual happiness. It is related to the eternal purpose of God in the creation of all things. They need one day to be born of God. They have the natural birth. We all need the second birth which enlivens the comatose human spirit. They need to be saved through the salvation of the Son of God. I'm trying to do that.Especially not to say that you said my mommy loves me more than your mommy loves you. Where did that problem come from though? Was it picked out of the air or something? These "germs" were carried by some teacher. How did that teacher acquire those bad teachings?What is the source of these bad teachings being passed around? Did someone decide to intruduce immorality into human society and it just stuck? How and why did that person do that? How did they have the power to do that? Why did they possess the unfortunate desire to do that ?These are the kinds of questions that I found answers to in the Bible which I think is God's revelation to mankind. In terms of the law of God we come up defective.You see the law of God was given to expose that we have fallen. It is like the liquid that a cancer patient drinks which under X-Ray exposes the growth of the cancer inside their body.Man thought that being estranged from God was a minor problem that he can easily fix. To expose the depths of the problem God said in essence "You think you're OK? Alright, here. Keep this law."So the law of God was given to expose the defect in man. Look at the last of the ten commandments "You shall not covet." To covet is to want something of someone else's in a envious, jealous way. We all have come up short. It is really a commandment against a feeling. You shall not feel that way.No one can keep it. So all have fallen short of being able to live up to the law of God. God is absolutely righteous and sin is an abomination to God. So we all need to be saved from its righteous penalty. And that is a spiritual matter.Of course I see nothing about a baby being commanded to not covet. But up to a certain age it becomes apparent that that human being has a problem with the inability to stop all coveting.We may agree in our mind that it is good not to covet. We have the knowledge of good and evil. In fact we are very proud of this knowledge. We can point out the faults of others. This does not mean that we are one bit better ourselves. It only means that we have a knowledge of good and evil.We need a knowledge of divine life in a subjective way. That is a spiritual matter. To fulfill God's purpose Christ said "Do not marvel that I said to you, You must be born anew." (John 3:7)The person being spoken to was Nicodemus. His name means "Victor of the people". He was an relative highly moral leader and teacher of his nation. Upright, dignified, learned, morally straight Nicodemus was, a highly respected rabbi.Jesus said to him "Do not marvel that I said to you, You must be born anew." Jesus also said that unless he was born of the Spirit he could not even "see" the kingdom of God. He needed regeneration to comprehend this kingdom of God, this spiritual kingdom.I said that the realm of the spiritual is a kingdom. You're saying that Christ is incorrect. You're saying that you do not have to be born anew in your spirit.Jesus said "That which is born of the Spirit is spirit". So the born anew He was speaking of was a birth in the kernel innermost part of man's being, his human spirit. Without the new birth a man cannot see the kingdom of God. He can't understand what that whole realm is.I want what Jesus wants. I want what God wants. You may argue that it is not necessary. But the Son of God wants people to be born anew and says that it is a "MUST". If there are exceptions I think that would not represent the perfect will of God. Maybe it is something He permits.But His perfect will is that men and women be born anew. Rather than to seek out what God will allow I want to seek out what God really wants. Justification by faith is being justified according to God's standard of righteousness. The ultimate decider of righteousness is not you or I. It is God. He is the source of our creation. He is the source of all creation. He is also the source of what is right.Redemption means to purchase of buy. Because of the fall of man man became possessed by the law of God. God is absolutely righteous. And to save us from the just penalty of our sins a price had to be paid to purchase us out from under the possession of the law of God."Christ has redeemed us out of the curse of the law, having become a curse on our behalf ... in order that the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." (Gal. 3:13,14)This is all according to the standard of righteousness established by the Creator of man and the Law Giver of man.You believe what you wish. As for me, I am sure that ultimately I must answer to the ultimate Decider the Governor of the universe - God. What good will it do me to assume that I am justified according to my own personal standard of righteousness when it is to God that I am accountable?Assuming that I will just conveniently skip the final judgment of God, maybe be absent on that day, is a false hope.But let me return to the matter of spirituality. It says that we are redeemed so that we may receive the promise of the Spirit. So redemption is necessary to receive the Spirit.Your concept is "I don't need the Spirit of God to be spiritual." I think you're mistaken about that. I think if you have not been born of the Eternal Spirit Who is God, your "spirituality" is just something lofty in the human soul.The soul is capable of very lofty things. Nicodemus had a lofty religious soul. Jesus said to him that he must be born again. His spirit must be born of the Holy Spirit. Well, I have to squarely deal with the words of Christ. There is an credibility and approvedness with the man Jesus Christ which I cannot easily dismiss.I think the authority of Jesus and the Bible here is more meaningful to me than the philosopher who says the teaching is mistaken. It is not my teaching. Jesus said "you must be born anew." I think the approvedness and legacy of Jesus Christ impresses me with His authority in the matter.I believe that the reality is with Jesus Christ and what He spoke - "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away." Of course they need knowledge. And of course we do not hold a newborn babe accountable for anything.I cannot tell you precisely how God deals with babies. I am pretty sure though, that all people including high and upstanding ones like Nicodemus in John 3, must be born of the Spirit.This Spirit is Christ Himself in another form. After His resurrection the word says "... the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45). This divine life that is the life giving Spirit is Christ Himself. This is the spiritual experience. One day that young person must be born anew and receive the life giving Spirit in order to see and to enter into the kingdom of God, the spiritual kingdom.But to be lofty in thought and to utter philosophically high things does not require a new birth. Socrates and Confucius, Aristotle and other deep thinking people may do that. They are "groping after the truth". I am more impressed with the approvedness built up by the testimony borne by the man Jesus Christ. The Person and character of Jesus is what impresses me. I cannot easily dismiss His words as imaginary or a mistake.I may be mistaken in my interpretation of the words of Jesus or of the Bible. But the matter here is "Is regeneration needed to be spiritual?"Let's say I'm mistaken. Let's say that there exists a situation that there is true spirituality apart from being regenerate and born of God. Let's say that one need not be justified before a righteous God in order to be spiritual.That is not the way I want to take. I am convinced that that would represent the less than optimal plan of God. That may (and I emphasis may) be what He will allow in some special case.His perfect will is that I come to Christ to be justified by faith in Him, I be redeemed out from under the curse of the law of God, and I receive the life giving Spirit to be born anew to grow into one of the sons of God. That to me is the plan of God primarily.The New Testament says that this plan was established before the foundation of the world. That means before the creation of the universe: So I understand being presented before God holy and without blemish in the sphere and realm of Christ as the eternal purpose of God. If there is a contigency that you are seeking out, I am less interested in that. That represents a possible permissive will of God and not the perfect will of God established before the foundation of the world.Life is most meaningful to me not in permissive contigencies but in the PLAN that the Creator established before He created man and man's universe.He created all things because of His will:"You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, for You have created all things, and because of Your will they were, and were created." (Rev. 4:11)This means to me that FIRST God had a plan, a will. Then based upon this plan He created all things. The Romans passage said that God desired for us sonship through Jesus Christ, before the foundation of the world.For me the best possible place to be is in the purpose of God who created all things - His eternal purpose. If there is a side show going on somewhere that you have found, I am much less interested in that.As it stands, if I do interpret right, the Son of God said we must be born again. So I believe that that is His perfect will and that is what I teach. I am not at all bothered someone saying that this is imaginary or a mistake.Time will tell, won't it? Well, let me speak from my personal experience. I do not remember much about being a baby. I remember some smells and the scent of feshly cleaned linen. "Thanks mom".As I grew to a little boy I do remember being puzzled that I did not have perfect self control over my own thoughts. I remember as a very young kid realizing that I could not keep certain bad things from going through my mind. And that was a problem.I think I remember the first time my conscience told me not to steal something from a friend and I stole it anyway. That was a problem. No one taught me to steal. I just knew that I had to wait until no one was looking and slip it into my pocket. And this was my best friend who I loved and whose family I loved.That was a germ in me that came from somewhere. So I am inclined to agree with David "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin did my mother conceive me."I knew what I did was wrong. I do not want to do wrong. I did wrong anyway. There was a problem. There still is a problem. But I know now the solution - salvation in Christ. That I stole as a young kid, knew it was wrong, was not my imagination. It was reality. Jesus tells me "He who commits sin is a slave to sin."I think this is not only a reality for me but for you also. You're a big sinner just like I am. Sorry. It is not my teaching. It is not my imagination even. I don't even know you. But I bet you are a big sinner.If you think I am unfair stand up next to Jesus Christ. Read the New Testament and compare His life with yours. Jesus was not only sinless. He was gloriously sinless.You may say that you are a pretty good and spiritual person. But are you glorious? Jesus was more than just good. He was glorious. And when He speaks about spirituality I inclined to take it very seriously, not withstanding a skeptical person saying that Christ's teaching in imaginary and mistaken.I would say that if you don't know God and cannot call Him Father, you don't know yourself very well either. If the light in you is darkness then how great is the darkness?Before I knew God I was in spiritual pitch black darkness, didn'trealize it, and I was proud of myself too.I know that in myself I am only worthy to be damned. I stand upon Christ's merit. I know no other stand before God. I will stand before God as we all must, clothed in the blood of Jesus, my ONLY covering before an eternally holy and righteous Judge. I thank Him for redemption and the gift of a regenerated inner man.If I find out that I am mistaken, I will not have one single regret. It is the best possible human life I could have hoped for, to believe in Jesus Christ.If I had 100 lives to live on this earth, I would not want to waste ONE of them disbelieving in Christ the Son of God.I found what I was seeking for in this world in the love of Jesus.Further comments will have to be real short and selective. The fall of man is something that requires a supernatural solution. The so called "defect" is not one that any human being can correct. The effects of the fall of man require the supernatural intervention of God.We are regenerated to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus from the dead. I am not advocating sending babies to the doctor for repair of defects.We come into the world with a Satanified and sinful nature. If we don't see it in the infant, the time will come when it will be manifested in thier acts. I don't believe that you were an exception at all. The key word in what I wrote was "totally".Everyone's finger prints are different. But there is something universal about little lines on the fingers of human hands.I think I'll leave this matter for latter. I'd have to review in what context we diverged in this matter.Skipping a little: If you one day come before God are you going to tell God that He was not required ?Or are absolutely positive that your coming before God could never happen ? I gave you a person experience. I don't think you are different.I told you that the teaching and testimony of Jesus impresses me more than you're claiming His teaching that we must be born anew is imagination.I think that your concept that we are not born with a sinning nature is your imagination, an idealistic imagination of a humanist worldview. In fact the notable theologian Karl Barth held such a view too. The First World War shook it. And he changed and adopted a theology that has been come to be known are Reform Theology.But previously he had an idealistic outlook about the nature of man not needing anything more but some moral cultivation. This is the problem. I am not talking about something that comes up in the X-Ray, or fits in a test tube.I am also not talking about that some "defects" that the medical clinic can solve. And I think there is more to the human life than the physical body.The discussion is under the thread of "Spirituality". If you mean that this spirituality matter is something physical which a X-Ray machine can photograph, then we are no on the same page.And I am kind of tired of talking about "babies' defects". I prefer to speak of the fall of man as being born with his ability to contact God the Spirit in a "comatose" or deadened state.I think your emphasizing "babies' defects" if an appeal to the emotional. "How could you accuse these little babies of defects?"If you are trying to appeal to a sense of moral outrage because I'm pushing "defective babies" that need medical attention right away, I would ask you to stop pertraying my posts in that way. The issue is not BABIES. The issue is all born human beings come with a sin prone nature.I don't understand everything about this problem. I have some good questions about it myself, But Ephesians says: I don't understand everything about this passage. But I understand that there is an evil Satanic force operating in man. That is all men and women born since Adam. This is in a realm not detected by other than spiritual means. The doctor does not see it in the X-ray.When we stand up next to the law of God I see the effect of this Satanified spirit operating in fallen man.If you say that we simply get some bad education and learn to be slaves of the lust of the flesh and of the evil thoughts then you should explain how this bad education should be in the world in the first place. Someone had to be evil to start the educational ball rolling. I think you're deceived. I think probably you are just talking about very lofty things in the soul of man."I'm spiritual without God" I wouldn't trust. The very attitude is one of rebellion. And I believe that rebellion against God, like the Ahteist who says God does not exist, is a transgression against God. This kind of "spirituality" will not go unpunished because it is in rebellion against God and has "an evil heart of unbelief" as its source.This is not a personal matter. This is a matter pertaining to all men, including myself. In ourselves we desire to be independent from God. We all have the knowledge of good and evil and we are very proud of the knowledge.However, though we have the knowledge we are not always able to perform the good that we know. And we are not always able to resist the evil that we know. We have the knowledge. We do not have the life power to live as we should according to our Creator's standard of righteousness. Here we go again. The "Damaged Babies" thing. I think you are taking the biblical teaching of the innate sinful nature of all people because of the disobedience of Adam, and trying to appeal to humanitarian emotions by couching it in sense of "Damaged and Defective Babies".I will have to skip again to the end. I believe that the Bible is the revelation of God to man. Its statements are trustworthy.I don't think your philosophy surpasses the teaching of Jesus Christ or the testimony that He bore.I quote the Bible because it is a unique book of which there is no other like it. That is 66 book somehow orchestrated together with a common theme written by 40 different authors of vastly different backrounds, over a period of 1600 years.I use to argue a lot with a Christian friend as you are arguing now with me. I don't remember any of the points of those debates very well. What I remember was the things he said which were right out of the Bible. That is what the Holy Spirit used to open my eyes to the reality. I have since had a feeling that perhaps that will someday also be the experience of someone I talk with.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

It may be necessary for you to speak not for God to see what is in you but for you to see it.I said before that if you do not know God you cannot know yourself well. This is a totally bogus objection. No one has suggested that God wants you not to use your brain.Paul's exhortation is that Timothy would have a "sound mind".I see that as an Atheist you have accumulated an array of irrelevant reasonings which you deem are pretty clever. I have yet to meet an atheist who didn't think he was very clever.We need a keen and renewed mind to interpret what is going on in the human spirit. There is also the facility of the will. There is a saying "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."There are some things people for one reason or another are simply not willing to believe. For example, if you are convinced that God is not the Heavenly Father but rather a arbitrary despot, a tyrant, who only wants to withold the best possible good to your life, you may be unwilling to pray to contact God in the realm of the spiritual.You may also be unwilling to recognize that your sins have made a separation between you and God. You may be simply not willing to think of your sins as a problem between you and God.Or you may think that if it is a problem that must mean that God does not love you. The lies that deceive the unbelieving mind are endless. We really need to be delivered from these lies. It is important to identify where the insulation between the sinner and God exists. Where is the barrier that make God not real to you? It is in your sins. This passage has really helped me to see this: This is not the entire message of the Bible. The Bible does not reduce down to this and only this verse. It has been helpful to many of us.The sins that we have commited have made a separation between us and God. The iniquities that we have commited have formed a barrier to fellowship. That is real guilt because of real sins. That is actual transgressions we have commited that have caused an insulation to hinder our fellowship with God.This is why the redemption of Christ is important. That redemptive plan deals with the problem of the separation between a man and God. But the redemption must be accepted by faith. A man's faith is followed by God's FAITHFULNESS. The problem of real guilt is taken care of and there is no separation between enjoying the presence of God.When you come by faith to Christ God looks upon you as if you had never commited any sin. It is not that He overlooks them. It is that they have been JUDGED in Christ on His cross in your place. Justice has been imputed on the sinner's behalf, who comes to receive Jesus.And as I wrote before "the spirit is life because of righteousness".Now many people resent that this coming to God has to require faith. I myself have puzzled over the matter. But one thing is certain. Faith leaves nothing for man to boast about. Faith leaves nothing for man to be proud about that he accomplished by his own power.Maybe that is why God's way of salvation calls for faith. In my experience faith is followed by Divine Faithfulness. It is not my faith alone. It is God's faithfulness responding to my faith.I don't think in myself I have anymore faith then you. But I know where to get faith. It is in the word of God. If I read it and I am willing to be changed faith comes from hearing the word of God. I am pretty sure.Anyway, the barrier, the separation is your sins. It is nothing more interesting that your sins. That is real guilt before God because of your real sins. And you need real forgiveness in Jesus. Tha barrier is removed effectively and there is no problem to having communion and fellowship with God. The truth right in front of each of us is that we HAVE sinned. You may try to rationalize it away. But it is there. You may spend your entire life convincing yourself that you are not a sinner. But you are on a rendevous with reality. I assure you, regardless of the clever arguments you post here, one day your God created human conscience will catch up to you.Today you may use your two lips to criticize Christians and God. The day will come when you will use those same two lips to criticize yourself before God. I am telling you that the problem of your sins has a remedy in the Savior Jesus Christ today. I agree. I never known Him to reject an HONEST prayer. That prayer asking God to show you reality can be made today.Another passage which has been helpful to me: Tomorrow, even tonight, is not garuanteed to any of us. If there is an inclination in the conscience to ask God to show one reality, the Bible says "Seek the Lord while He can be found; Call upon Him while He is near."This is not a threat. It is simply good and sound practical advice. Even an Atheist might have a moment when he is somewhat more willing to excercise some faith to ask this God, just in case God is real, to show him the way of truth.What do you have to lose in doing so? I am happy that we close our exchange today. Thankyou for your thoughts.My philosophy is to speak to people until Jesus becomes an issue to them. I don't like to speak to them until jaywill becomes an issue to them. There is a difference.Jesus loves you Stile. See you around the Forum I guess.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I am a Christian. And your two dichotomies are over simplistic in light of everything said in the Bible about the matter.Oversimplification does not necessarily mean wrong. It means inadaquate. Let's start with the word "dichotomies". The reason why these dichotomies are over simplistic and inadaquate is because man, in Scripture, is a trichotomy."And the God of peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess. 5:23)Here are three parts not just two: "your spirit and soul and body". We could say that there is a dichotomy in that two parts are immaterial and one part is material.spirit and soul - immaterial
body - materialBut man himself "complete" is "spirit AND soul AND body" (my emphasus)The tripartite man can be studied more here: Tripartite Man: refs. include Watchman Nee and Witness LeeThe problem is further complicated by the fact that the bible uses the term "the flesh" or "flesh" in different shades of meaning. They are not always negative. It is sometimes meant negatively, ie. meaning the whole fallen and sinful man.At other times flesh or fleshly is not meant in any particularly negative sense. A man shall leave his father and mother, be joined to his wife. And the two shall become one flesh. (See Genesis 2:24; Eph. 5:31; Matt. 19:5). I don't think anything pernicious is meant there.My point is that the little dichotomy you wrote is inadaquate because it over simplifies the matter. I will at this time avoid the temptation of a quick answer. Let me return to the subject with some careful thought and a genuine intention to help you.But I will say at the ourset that the Bible eludes total theological systemization. If you want total and absolute systematic theology of the Bible I am sure that that will not work.

The "you" in there is general. I mean all people.Let me put it this way, the example of Peter is illustrative. He was so sure that in his own strength he could follow Christ to death if he had to. Jesus told him that before the cock crew he would deny him three times. When it came down to it Peter denied even knowing Jesus and that with cursing and before a little servant girl.He found out that Jesus knew him much better than he knew himself. What he wanted to do and what he was able to do were two different things.My belief is that apart from Christ we all mistake ourselves for the person we want to be. What we want to be and what we actually are are not the same.I think Peter is a kind of representative of all of us. The particulars about believing we can follow Jesus are not the issue as much as the general desire to do the right thing. Often we are full of self confidence about what we can do. But this is a reflection of what we would like to be and not what we really are. I already briefly gave you some possible wrong ways of thinking in that "clever" example. I don't think I said that people could know without being shown. But in the matter of being shown I think persuasion is different from proof.Some people are shown that they are sinners but they are not persuaded of the seriousness of it. They may be comparing themselves to other people and thinking "Well, at least I am not as bad as that other guy over there." But the Bible is not comparing me to that guy over there but according to God's standard of righteousness.When I did not know Christ I was like a house in the night with all the lights turned low or even off. My house was dark. As a result I could look out the window and see very clearly (so I thought) what was going on in the other houses. But when the lights in my own house were turn up very brightly, I was more able to see what was going on in my own house. I was less impressed with what was going on in the other houses.This is an illustration. And I think it applies to most, if not all of us before and after we meet Jesus Christ. We just trust ourselves in a dark way. It is not that we do not know anything about ourselves. But next to the light of Christ we don't realize how much we need to mercy of God to live righteously. "Afterlife" is not a word in my vocabulary. I cannot find such a word in the Bible. I think it is a kind of natural religious thought, perhaps even invented by outside observers of Christians. But if not, it is still not a good term to me.I see a lot about Christ as life, Christ being life, giving life, resurrection and life, and enjoying the Spirit of life here and now and through eternity. I don't see "AFTER - life" as a biblical idea.But to the matter of faith. The Person to me in human history who most strongly demonstrated a life of faith was Jesus Himself. Of all human lives His is by far the most powerful and the most impactful I have ever seen. Yet He lived totally in faith.So the Bible has a long list of impressive people how lived by faith. And the top one is Jesus Christ the Son of God. Faith plus the Faithfulness of God to me is a stronger way of life than anything else.Far from being pitiable and unsure I see faith plus the faithfulness of God as extremly stable. That is the way I want to live.Faith also leaves man with nothing to brag about. The glory goes to God and His faithfulness. According to Genesis it was the thrust for independence from God which plunged the human race and its world into sin and death, decay and misery. It all started with the thought that we could have some knowledge which would make us independent from this supposed tyrant God who was arbitrarily limiting our lofty potential.It was a lie. And in the long list of heroes of faith, those who relied upon God, Jesus Christ the Son of God is the crowning Man of Faith. His faith caused Him to overcome death itself."This One [Christ], in the days of His flesh, having offered up both petitions and supplications with strong crying and tears to Him who was able to save Him out of death and having been heard because of His piety ..." (Hebrews 5:7)Here it says that Jesus Christ offered up strong prayers to the Father who was able to save Him OUT OF death. That is not to be saved from dying. That is to be saved out of death once having died. Christ's faith brought about His resurrection from the dead.He demonstated above all others the power of man's faith PLUS the faithfulnesss of God. And I wrote above that our sins have made a separation between us and God. Our sins is the barrier. When the problem of the forgiveness of our sins is addressed through coming to Jesus in faith for redemption and justification from our sins, we can contact God and substantiate fellowship with God.The obstacle is nothing more interesting then our sins. It is not that we need to know more about quantum physics. It is not that we need to know more about ancient Greek culture or ancient Roman law. It is not that we need to know more about the Big Bang. It is none of these very interesting things.The separation between us and the spiritual life is the real guilt before a real God because of our real sins. We need to really repent and receive forgiveness through the death of Christ on our behalf. And it is personal - "He lived me and gave Himself up for me" writes Paul.Now you protest that you know yourself. Sure, you know yourself some. But do you yet know that you are a hopeless sinful man who is good only to be condemned by God law ? I am worst than you.The more I grow in Christ the more I realize in myself that there is no hope in my own goodness. It takes someone really pure to live right. I'd rather go with Jesus in the dark than try it myself alone in the light. You might start by considering the creation. Would you like to have the responsibility to keep every cell in your body functioning properly? The intelligence to create such a marvelous life is astounding. If you convert that creative power to moral power you have a very powerful moral agent.Who would you say in human history exemplifies the greatest degree of moral authority? I would say that there have been many very moral people, good people. But I would have to say none compares to Jesus of Nazareth. Three and one half years of living have made such a cataclysmic impact on history. They divided human history (at least in the west) to Before Christ B.C. and In the Year of Our Lord - A.D. (I know now it is common to not offend by speaking of BCE and CE). The point is the same though.Anyway, I can't easily ignore such a Person, His life and His words. He bothers me and I have to deal with Jesus.That is why some people come to a Faith and Belief Forum, to deal with this troublesome Jesus Person. I am not saying that you are a believer in God. And this is getting a little confused to me.I guess what I would like you to remember the most is that our sins make a separation between us and God. God has made provision to remove that separation.Now once an agonostic friend of mine protested to me saying "That's what I don't like about the Gospel. You have to have faith to believe and you have to believe to have faith." I went home and thought on it and decided that he was right.But then I noticed that the New Testament says that faith works by love. So you learn to trust someone you love. And if you read the Gospel of Jesus there is a good chance that you will begin to love this Person Jesus just a little. And enough faith can come to get more.Look, You trust your father and mother. They said that they were your parants. I bet you never went to have a DNA analysis done to prove that to be true. I bet you trusted them.Maybe they lied. Maybe the doctor lied on your birth certificate. Maybe that is not your mother. Maybe that is not your father. Maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe ....I bet you never really PROVED that the persons you call Mom and Dad were without any possible doubt or chance of deception, your parents. But you probably loved them and trusted that they were telling you the truth.Do you really KNOW that that is your father? Do you really KNOW that that is your mother.?It is similar with getting to know Christ and God. Faith works through love. I do not know that. I don't even know that you don't know God. I only am going by your words. Do you really think that God does not exist ?I think whoever concocted the character of Jesus Christ, if Jesus was a fictional invention of that person's imagination, we better find that person and see whatother marvelous things he or she can dream up.I think Jesus has His hands on too much truth not to be consulted on the matter of the existence of God. Let me turn it around to you then. I do what you atheists tell me and I still know that God has touched me.Seems to work both ways.

In the meantime, I am concerned with how the beliefs effect my day to day life. Time will just have to vindicate the truth.I take little pride in just have the correct information, the right data. What is important to me is how Christ is lived out in my life.I am commanded to go into all the world and preach the Gospel. So I do. I simply have to leave the final vindication of the truth up to God and His timing. See if you can consult some of the people in your life. I am pretty sure that a couple of them will inform you that, "Yes onfire, I think you sinned. At least on this occasion you sinned against me."Is there no one in your life that you have done dirt to? I mean an evil deed/s. Nobody? Go ask her. Ask them.You think there is no rememberance of your life? You think there is no record? You think you will peacefully melt away into the dust of the earth in annhilation. Maybe you are noble and think the only justice is that you know yourself that you could have done better.That's not bad. The only thing is that we tend to be strict with others and merciful on ourselves. This is not equal. This is IN- equality - iniquity. Where is the totally equal sense of justice?I believe that it is with God. He is no respector of persons. But if as a atheist you are gambling on only peacefully disolving away into dust with no accounting for what was done or what was done TO you, for that matter, I think it would be wise to listen to Jesus.Of all people Jesus is the one said to have gone into death and come out again. On the subject matter of ultimate destinies and final accountability, I have to listen to Jesus Christ.You don't feel to? Okay. You make your own decision. I cannot. I think God can. He can get on the inside of a man. I can't.There are somethings which the Bible says that we KNOW. These things the Apostle John wrote us reminding us that we who have received Jesus Christ into our hearts know. Paul also talks about the pledge of the Spirit within as a kind of "downpayment" and earnest and a foretaste of a fully enjoyment to come.John calls it "an anointing" that teaches us to abide in union with Christ the living Spirit - "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)So my experience is not that I simply muster up human will power like Dorthy or the Cowardly Lion in the Wizard of Oz - "I Do believe, I Do, I Do, I Do". It is not a matter of my mustered up will power.Rather we have a pledge of the indwelling Holy Spirit. And I know that Jesus lives more than I know my own name. The intuitive sense of the livingness of Christ and of God and that I am in fellowship with this God, is deeper than anything else going on in my being. The Apostle John is not saying that they know everything in the world. He is saying that concerning Christ as alive and indwelling them the Holy Spirit is painting them as a kind of anointing, rubbing this ointment of God into them, and they know it. God is dispensing and imparting His life and nature into the believer in Christ. The believer is experiencing a transformation that he knows is not of him. He himself cannot be the source for it is freeing him from the slavery of sinning.This anointing, the rubbing of God's life into the man is the source of his knowing "all things" pertaining to the living Son of God. I don't get introspective. As the Holy Spirit convicts me of my faults I put them under the blood of Jesus. We overcome the accusations by the blood of Christ.He does a much better job of exposing my weaknesses and faults then you could ever do. Only Jesus can do a truly "inside job".Besides, me being condescending doesn't make God not exist for you. let's say I am really,really humble. Let's say I am really,really proud. I think you should still deal with the words of Jesus.He says that He loves the sinner and died on the cross and rose. If you come to Him God looks upon you as if you had never sinned. If you were to remind Him of your sins after coming to Jesus God might say "I don't know what you are talking about. Whatever sins you have done have all been judged with Justice on the cross of Calvary. You are free." I'd like you to think about that onfire. With God it is possible that your entire life history is changed from a legacy of sins and transgressions to a Person Jesus Christ. Christ Himself can become your sinless past.I didn't invent this scheme. I don't think some smart people concocted such a scheme. We learned about it out of the mouth of Jesus Christ.Now hold on. I may not be able to convince you that God exists. But I want you to understand what Jesus says. He is righteous. You are not. He is righteousness itself. You are guilty. If you believe into Christ immediatly God looks upon for eternity as if you had never sinned. It has already been judged. Justice on your behalf has been imputed in the death of Jesus that you may be forgiven.Then He wants to enter into your innermost being as life giving Spirit to empower you to live in an "organic union" with Christ - with God and in God for eternal life.Don't say that this is condescending. Or it could be the case that I am the best friend he has at the moment because I am telling him the truth about the love of Jesus for his soul.Maybe it is the case that you want to assure yourself that Christ can be ignored by encouraging Stile to do the same. Maybe if he does not come to Christ for salvation because you urged him on to disbelieve, his blood will be on your hands before God. I think the anointing within that I spoke of teaches me to abide in Christ.Ask your Moslem friends if they know God. Ask them. When I ask them I usually do not get the answer with confidence. There is a difference between knowing a lot ABOUT God and knowing God.Usually they will say that no one can know God. But they know a lot about God. They know that God is the Creator. They know that God gives them blessings. They know that God is great and that God is good. They know a lot of things the Quran or the Bible for that matter told them about God. But rarely do they admit THAT THEY KNOW GOD.Ask them.Being born of God, regeneration, is that we may know Christ, that we may know God as our dear and intimate Abba Father.When I knew God inwardly the whole world seemed a different place to me. I went down to the pond at twilight. I heard the insects chirping and the frogs croaking. I felt His presence. I said to myself:"Now I understand. These things my Father made. This is my Father's world." That is a hypethetical situation that I do not know of. Maybe that is just something made up in your head.But if not, I would not deny that there are cases which are over my head. And I know I have limitations. It doesn't mean that these tough cases are over the head of Jesus.We have the case of Job in the Bible. He believed in God and EVERYTHING in his life became a living hell. One entire book is devoted to "Why to Bad Things Happen to Good People". And the book of Job never give the answer to Job as to why all that terrible stuff happened to him.You might call this book "Equal Time to the Disillusioned".
Then you have the book of Ecclesiastes which could be called "Equal Time to the Cynical"My bible doesn't shy away from hard cases. And I have known quite a few people with very hard cases. While I may not be able to advize in all cases I know that somewhere God has taken someone through a hard case like that.As a young gospel preacher I was trained with the advice "Do not try to preach the gospel to an older man. He will not consider that you even know human life as well as he."So I do meet some people whom I only feel to pray for. It is not always easy. People do go through some very rough crap.However, I am still pretty certain that Jesus Saves.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

If you'll notice, that is why I wrote "... time will tell. Won't it?" I regard Christ as authoritative to at least point us in the right direction. If you can think of someone in history with as much weight on the subject I would consider they're input.As it stands, we may not have immutable proof but I can't easily dismiss what Jesus has to say about it. Is there some reason why I should be more impressed with onfire's reasoning than in the testimony of Jesus ? I am not noble at all. I am a scoundrel. I am desperately wicked. This is one reason why I felt that I am on the right track to believe in the Savior Christ. Somehow it occured to me that because the need is so great there must be an answer to the need.(lol. Here I am responding to my own sentence!)Now it could be that there is none. But I think I am on the right track to approach Christ about my need. He just has a kind of approvedness on the subject. His resume if you will, is impressive.And the evidence of His working in my life lead me to believe that I am on the right track. Why should that be? I agree that that is a problem with many. Then we should ask why it should be that way. Maybe the is a legitimate reason for that. Maybe the Bible shows why that is so and what can be done about it."He who commits sin is a slave to sin."But Christ did not just leave us there in that desparation. He presents Himself as our solution. He has been working marvelously for me in this. I think I need the rest of my life to continue to explore Christ as the answer. Don't dispair about this. Some things are just a timing matter.Your little photo "Please Nigga!" is offensive to me as a black person. I think it may be even to some Caucasian participants in the Forum. And I think one reason you may be having trouble knowing the truth of sin is that you rather enjoy bigotry.So being at an impasse can also be a problem of one just having too much of a good time being evil and offensive to other human beings. In that case you may just be having too much of a good time being wicked rather than really seeking the truth.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Yes. Maybe I am all wrong. How's that? Yes. Hold on now. If I could be completely wrong, why not you too? In that case this sentnece:"The means by which one chooses to get there is completely up to the individual."could be entirely falacious. How do you know ? Hold on. If I can be totally mistaken why not you too?Perhaps this magnanimous statement is totally incorrect.What is this "jaywill, make room for that fact that you could be mistaken. In the mean time here's the truth, my opinion"?I am not a heavy on philodophy but it seems that the concept you apply to me should also apply to you as well. Hold on. I could be wrong. So I think your magnanimus apologetic could also be wrong. What then would you call the action of someone who stole from you? Did you ever have someone steal something from you? If you don't like the term sin do you have something else you'd like to call it?I think the term sin has a original word picture of "missing the mark". It invokes the word picture of someone shooting an arrow and missing the mark.I think the bibilcal idea is that there is a moral bull's eye in our bevarior "shooting of the arrow". We miss the mark when we shoot. We sin.I ask myself "What does it look like to always hit the buul's eye?" The answer is to look at and study the life of one Jesus Christ. I think if you are a little bit open hearted, when you read through the life of Jesus and think of yourself in His light, you may agree that you have missed the mark.I know I see that. But I am not closed to His loving extension of His help to bring me into forgiveness and something better. I got convinced that I should not close my mind off to that. But it did take a long time. I think that even the atheist in the right circumstances would be irrate that someone has "sinned" against him. Or he might use some other term. I don't believe that the atheist is morally neutral, especially when the trangression has been directly against him.An inituity or transgression commited directly against the atheist, I am pretty sure, he would regard as a moral failure, a sin, or some other term useful to him.In short I don't think you live as if sinning is not a reality. I think that if you would be consistent with you philosophy though, you would argue that you have no strong basis to judge yourself as having done wrong.You're saying "I have done wrong" is not to strongly based. It is like saying "I like chocolate rather than vanilla." There is no ultimate law and no law giver. Your personal taste and preference seems the only thing that informs you. But that is as fleeting as your taste for anything.Note I didn't say you had no basis. I said that your basis of dicribing good deeds and evil deeds is weak. It seems as arbitrary as your taste in icecream. So why not assume that you really have not done either good or bad?The alternative is that there is a universal moral law of some kind somehow implanted in you and everyone else. We may have difficulties with certain finer issues. But this does not mean that there is no moral law. Rather it probably means there is or we would not be in disagreement about it.Now at this point I have to pay attention when the Bible says that the law of God is written on the hearts of the nations. And it says that the human conscience accuses or excuses our deeds informed by that inward moral compass.If so, it having been placed there by our Creator is not a trivial answer. It deserves serious attention to its possibility. I think it is a superior belief to thinking that the non-material ethical law innate in human consciousness is only the result of random interactions of chemicals in the physical brain.And that I think should be the Atheistic basis answer. Perhaps they hope one day to hold in a lab room beaker 30 millograms of "loyalty" or 50 millograms of "patience" or 1 litter of "devotion" or a gram of "love" or a half gram of "selfishness" or a pint of "pride".The commitment to an all encompassing materialism makes the existence of these attributes a problem for the Atheist, I think. Hold on here onfire. Have I said that any mercy shown towards me is NOT AVAILABLE to Stile also? If I gave that impression let me correct it. The same blood of Jesus which cleanses me from my sins was also shed for Stile.I will however, have a hard time arguing with you that I HAVE received mercy. When I think of the arguments of some of the atheists I do often say to myself "It is amazing that I actually believe the way I do."So I think I have to agree at least that I feel that God has had mercy on me to give me the ability to belief the Gospel when so many snart people like you have been chisling away at it for centries now.I mean do confess that I believe in the Son of God because of sheer mercy. But I don't think that mercy is not available to someone else. It may just be a matter of timing. Hold on. I could be wrong. You could be as well.It is arbitrary for you to teach "jaywill, you could be mistaken. So then my concept that all paths are equal has to be the truth."Apply to yourself what you apply to me. How do you know all paths are equal? Maybe they are not.Anyway, I think with Christ there is a huge amount of leeway as to how a man comes to know Him. And I find also that most Atheist end up with a much more elitist and restrictive way to know about the truth in life than Christ's invitation "Whoseover believes ...".I think that you cannot improve upon the wide open scope of the invitation to whosoever believes may have eternal life. I think the efforts of thinkers to improve upon the wide open invitation of the Gospel invariably come up with something much more restrictive.The Atheists I talk to about the most essential issues of life insist on knowing about the finer points of natural selection, the cosmology of big Bang, the Quantum Physics just come out of cutting edge science, the behavior of this or that amino acid.Most of the Atheists I talk to who complain that the Gospel is too restrictive seem to want me to have two or three Phds. in all the finer scientific information that they have mastered. And it is only when you understand all this intricate science that you may hope to know really how and why man is here.But the love and forgiveness in Jesus can be grasped by a child or an aged man. This is not at all to disparage scientific knowledge. This is to point out that the Gospel invitation is really quite broad - "Whoseover believes may not perish but have eternal life"Skeptical attempts to scold God for not being wide enough usually end up in a much more elitist and restrictive invitation for people to know the most essential truths of human life.I think I will stop here. I will examine your other comments latter.

If I had a Bible that translated 1 Cor. 2:14 that way I would probably throw it in the trash immediately.The Recovery Version translates:"But a SOULISH man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him and he is not able to know [them] because they are discerned spiritually"It is not a PHYSICAL man but a SOULISH man. That is a man dominated by the SOUL with little functioning of his spirit. (We are a three part being 1 Thess. 5:23).A person may be very philosophical in his SOUL, very active in the mind but be adverse to praying or touching the Spirit of Christ by calling on His name to contact Him. He is SOULISH. He is dominated perhaps by a very ethical soul or very philosophical or religious SOUL. Because he will not excercise his praying organ deep in him he is ruled by his SOUL. And he cannot discern spiritual matters.They seem like FOOLISHNESS to him. He may be very intelligent. But He has not sense of a need to pray to Christ or turn his heart to Christ and God.It is emphatically not a PHYSICAL man there but a SOULISH man. And if I were you I would take that English "translation" and put it away for awhile get something better.I would highly recommend the Recovery Version Bible with Footnotes as a far better study Bible. The Holy Bible Recovery VersionEdited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I didn't say it was easy to do so. And the New Testament also says that it is not easy to do so. That is why Hebrews says that the word of God is SHARPER than a two edged sword and is ABLE TO DO SO. The implication is that it is NOT EASY but the word of God can help.Now look: Notice the words " PIERCING EVEN TO THE DIVIDING OF SOUL AND SPIRIT". The implication is that this division is something very deep within our being. It is not obvious. It is not easy to separate the two. The living Word of God is PENETRATING. It cuts deeply into a person's personality EVEN TO the dividing of soul and spirit.When you read the word of God, sometimes you will come to a passage and you have the feeling that SOMEONE has been watching you. Something seems to jump off of the page and speak directly to your life. That has something to do with it. Something deep in your being is able to look within you in a way more pure, more clean and righteous, more holy and tell you about yourself. The word of God can convict you. That experience is approaching this matter of the word of God penetrating deep into your being and dividing the soul from the spirit. It is too hard for me to be totally systematic about when a person becomes spiritual. That is a hard matter.If an unbeliever could not "be spiritual" at the moment she or he is convicted that they need Jesus in their lives then no one could become saved or enter into the fellowship of the Holy Spirit.I am not smart enough answer this problem it scientific accuracy - "at what MOMENT does a person become spiritual?"If you wanted to make an issue that because I cannot exactly pinpoint the nanosecond in which a person crosses the threshold to bee spiritual, I would be able to argue too much against that.This could possibly be like trying to pinpoint the exact moment two people fell in love. It is not easy. It is on a "microscopic" level in a person's being. The Holy Spirit of God knows. You are not alone in that. Often times for the Christian it is a matter that suffering helps them to discriminate the distinction.Watchman Nee's book The Release of the Spirit dealt extensively with this matter. You see the human spirit is "surrounded" by the soul, so to speak. And experiences that "shatter" that surrounding encasing out like "dents" in our soul life through which the spiritual then "seeps out" or is more "released".Therefore we need not only the sharp penetrating word of God. We also need adverse situations, suffering, which aids in dividing the soul and the spirit.Please do not think that this is an easy matter. Sometimes I view the Christian as like a hardboiled egg. The shell is stuck to the soft part of the egg. You can only peal away the sections of shell piece by piece.1.) This has nothing to do with the destruction of the soul.This has to do with dividing the encasing soul from around the innermost kernel of man, his human spirit which has been regenerated through the Holy Spirit.2.) I don't know anything about the non-regenerated person discerning the soul from the spirit.The spirit of the person who has not yet received Christ is comatose and deadened. He is aware that something is missing. He is not sure what it is. If he receives mercy from God he may open his heart that what he senses is missing has something to do with Jesus the Son of God.3.) I am not able to pinpoint the mechanics of the exact second in which the spiritual becomes real to a person. This is on a "microscopic" level that is apparent to Jesus.You know He says that He searches the inward parts of people on a level impossibly detailed and minute for us to imagine:"I am He who searches the inward parts and the hearts; and I will give to each one of you according to your works" (Rev. 2;23)The description of Jesus Christ in Revelation symbolically shows a sharp two edged sword proceeding out of His mouth:"And He had in His right hand seven stars; and out of His mouth proceeded a sharp two-edged sword; and His face shone as the sun in its power." (Rev. 1:16)Hebrews 4:12 about the sharpt two edged sword and this picture of Jesus in Revelation with the sword coming out of His mouth both testify the same thing. When Christ speaks His words are able to penetrate deep into a man and bring to light hidden and shrouded motives, intentions, inclinations." ... piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit ... and able to discern the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And there is no creature that is not manifest before Him, but all things are naked and laid bare to the eyes of Him to whom we are to give our account." (Hebrews 4:12,13) I would consider First Thessalonians 5:23 as a direct reference to the tripartite man.I would consider Hebrews 4:12 as proof that the soul and the spirit may both be non-material but are distinct components of man.I would consider some of these passages as proof that the Apostle Paul understood a distinction between soul and spirit: All these passages and more speak of the human spirit and not the human soul. There are hundreds of passages on the human soul. I think that the the New Testament especially draws out this distinction.I think the tabernacle with its three sections Outer Court, Holy Place, and Holy of Holies is a picture of our tripartite being of body, soul, and human spirit.I think the saints with deeper experience helped us see the light of this matter in Scripture. Jessie Penn Lewis, Andrew Murray, Watchman Nee among others understood the soul and the spirit and helped the church to see this and come into more experience. I don't think the Bible always follows our sense of the "sensible". I would think it was more sensible for Genesis to begin with a long theological discourse on the history of Satan before it mentions the serpent that deceived Adam and Eve. Yet Genesis does not follow my "sensible" suggestion.It is not until latter in the Bible that we learn of an Advasary of God and an Accuser of ancient origin - and enemy of God and man.The "sensible" sequence of the writing is not there according to my opinion.I think the history of Joseph is most assuredly a type of that of Jesus - betrayed by his brethren because of his dreams, sold for a few pieces of silver, taken away from his brethren, falsly punished, not recognized by his kinsmen, exalted to be a great savior of the earth, etc. All this so much reminds me of Jesus that I think it would be "sensible" for the New Testament to plainly tell us that Joseph was a type of Christ. It does not.It depends on some experienced Spirit filled students of the word of God to point out to us how the life of Joseph shadows that of Jesus Christ. The written word though did not "sensibly" come write out and tell us.So I think we should be cautious. But our caution should be based on what the Bible teaches and implies. If it tells us that the word of God is able to penetrate and discern the human spirit from the human soul, we should consider that there must be something to that. It was not just written to fill up space on a page.Cautiously, but reverently we can consider the experiences of Christians who may have insight into the matter. I am sorry that is your experience. Some people go to Theological Seminary and come out with not the slightest bit of assurance that there is a God at all. There are Atheists teaching at some promoment Seminaries.I hear you that you feel frustrated that you don't see any basis for the spiritual. But I am afraid that I won't be deciding that our shortage of being able to help you will not cause us to decide that no such realm exists.I am genuinely sorry when I tell some people about the salvation of Christ and they walk away puzzled and muttering that that made no sense at all. However, I am encouraged when the next person might well grasp the matter, get saved, and we see his or her life changed as a result of meeting Jesus.Maybe someone else can help you where I simply cannot. I do have limitations. Whatever the case please do not stop exploring the Bible will a prayerful attitude, opened in your heart and willing to be changed within by Jesus. I will not be assuming that there is no spiritual realm because you fail to understand what I am trying to write here. I don't share your frustration. While I don't claim to know everything about this matter, I don't share your sense of frustration at all.Some things I experienced but had not the vocabulary to discribe until latter when I did some studying. But I recall the moment someting like a laser beam of pin point of light clicked in my being saying "Why don't you pray to God?"I actually laughed at myself because the thought of God as a personal Person to whom one might speak about a personal situation had not occured to me in years. It seemed that the thought came into me but was not OF me.That set off an avalanche of an eventual encounter with Jesus Christ that was more humbling and uplifting then anything that I had ever experienced before or since. I know now that that was my spirit touching the Holy Spirit. That was an instance of me experiencing tasting the spiritual realm. He is a living Person. I know many scientists who have no problem understanding and progressively experiencing the tripartite man. During my ten years in the Boston area I had much fellowship with Christians from MIT who were students of physics, computer science, cosmology, who freely conversed with each other about the spirit of man and the soul of man.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I know that. And I suspect the NWT, influenced by Russellite theology that the physical blood is the soul of man, has a vested interest in rendering it incorrectly "the physical man".Some Bible scholars say that every translation is also an interpretation. There may be some truth to that. The Watchtower Society wants its adherents to understand the soul of man as the physical blood of man. So they help the unfortunate along with this "translation" that the physical man is to be understood where it speaks of the soulish man. The word is derived from the Greek word translated "soul" in Matthew 10:28."And do not fear those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna." (Matt. 10:28)This passage is one that strongly refutes Watchtower teaching that the soul is the physical blood. Christ drew a distinction BETWEEN the body and the soul here.So to say the soulish man is the physical man is an error. Rather the soulish man should be understood as the man who is dominated by that immaterial part of his being, the soul.Paul's reference to the Greeks seeking wisdom, in the same chapter, helps us to understand that just as the very philosophical Greeks considered the things of the Spirit of God as foolishness, so the soulish man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God.Since man is born into this world with a deadened spiritual component - the human spirit, it stands to reason that the KJV translators would put "natural man" there. But the better translation can be found in the Recovery Version - "the soulish man".Perhaps other English translations render it soulish man also. The physical man there is way off. It was created specifically to promote Watchtower theology, Arian teaching, and the Arian sympathies of Charles Russell.I do not know why the "translators" are not mentioned as to WHO they were.Dr. Kerry S. Robichaux, I know, can be blamed for any errors in the Recovery Version. At least he puts his name behind it.To be fair, the Recovery Version also is a purposeful translation which is FAR from pushing many incorrect current doctrines and understandings. The essence of recovering neglected truths is the focus. And the footnotes of Witness Lee are very helpful in this.Whether the understanding is current or not is secondary. Incorrect understandings whether traditional or non-traditional are to be avoided.Your NWT's concept of the physical man in First Corinthians 2:14 may be off the traditional understanding. But it is its incorrectness which is the issue not its novelty.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.