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Author Topic:   Latent racism in the republican party?
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 19 of 45 (520842)
08-24-2009 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Taz
08-08-2009 12:42 AM


The intolerance of tolerance
So, the question again. Why is the country tolerating this crap?
Because it's a free country. In a free society you should be allowed to be a latent or blatant racist if you want. Let them suffer the adverse consequences for their actions and/or beliefs. So long as it doesn't infringe upon another persons freedom, let them be miserable racists.
That's the funny thing about the tolerance and intolerance. We're quick to point out others intolerances, but never seem to remember that their idea of "tolerance" ends up being, by the very nature of it, intolerant of countering views.
Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.

"I love the man that can smile in trouble, that can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. 'Tis the business of little minds to shrink, but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death. " Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Taz, posted 08-08-2009 12:42 AM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Perdition, posted 08-24-2009 1:16 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 24 by Taz, posted 08-24-2009 4:17 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 21 of 45 (520858)
08-24-2009 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Perdition
08-24-2009 1:16 PM


Re: The intolerance of tolerance
But this is the crux, right here. If someone's being a racist, they're often (though not always) at the very least, advocating infringing another's freedoms.
And there is another crux. Infringing on someone's rights for talking about suggesting to infringe someone else's rights inherently infringes rights. Whew!!! You get all that, cuz I'm kind of turned around right now? That was complicated.
What I mean is, if someone "talks" about infringing someone else's rights, they haven't done it and may not even have the ability to. They may just be trying to drum up support. But it's still speech. Where speech is no longer protected is through the litmus test of "clear and present danger."
For instance, the attitude that a "Muslim" shouldn't be able to be President is an implied (and effective) call to infringe on an American Muslim's ability to realistically run for a public office, of which the only limiting factors are clearly laid out in the Constitution...religion not being one of them.
The guying mentioning that the President's middle name is "Hussein" doesn't qualify him to be effectively trying to infringe upon the rights of all Muslims or that it's somehow a call to arms. Lets be realistic here.
So, even you allow that infringing on another's freedoms is a reason to stop certain racist actions. We would just disagree on what constitutes infringement of freedoms and the best way to counter those cases where we do agree.
Clear and present danger, acting in defense of the First Amendment is all that is needed.

"I love the man that can smile in trouble, that can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. 'Tis the business of little minds to shrink, but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death. " Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Perdition, posted 08-24-2009 1:16 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Rahvin, posted 08-24-2009 4:08 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 26 by Perdition, posted 08-24-2009 5:00 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 25 of 45 (520875)
08-24-2009 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Taz
08-24-2009 4:17 PM


Re: The intolerance of tolerance
If the KKK are running a campaign to distant themselves from the racist image and the people at McCain and Palin rallies yelled out hate speeches, what does that tell you about the attitude of the country as a whole for ignoring something like that?
Who's ignoring it? Or if anyone is ignoring it, it's because it's old and worn out news. Everyone knows that the KKK is a racist organization, so it's no mystery what they talk about in their rallies. The masses no longer pay attention to the KKK because they are a dying organization who simply don't have the power they once had.
I'm not really following what this has to do with Republicans? I mean, John McCain adopts Indian kids while Vice Presdient Biden makes fun of them. Should that mean that ALL Democrats are "latent" racists and that ALL Republicans are tolerant? Get some perspective.
Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.

"I love the man that can smile in trouble, that can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. 'Tis the business of little minds to shrink, but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death. " Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Taz, posted 08-24-2009 4:17 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Taz, posted 08-24-2009 5:29 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 28 of 45 (520880)
08-24-2009 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Perdition
08-24-2009 5:00 PM


Re: The intolerance of tolerance
One person exercising their rights almost always infringes on another person's rights. For a perhaps reductivist and silly instance, on a public walkway, you and I each have the same right to stand on a particular spot and gaze at the buildings around us. If you get there first, you're now infringing on my right to stand on that spot. How do we solve this dilemma without then infringing on your rights? It's a thorny question, especially when the instance isn't as inconsequential as this example.
Interesting philosophical dilemma. My personal view is libertarian in application, that the maximization of freewill with minimal personal interference is ideal. That said, I condemn and abhor anarchy. And isn't this why some cases end up going to the Supreme Court? That they are so thorny, as you said, that it ultimately is left to the fate of a panel of esteemed Justices.
In my silly example above, if I start telling people around me that you should be forcibly removed from "my" standing spot, and then act on my convictions, regardless of whether I'm physically strong enough to make you move, where does "clear and present danger" appear? When I actually touch you? When I get another person or two to agree with me? When they touch you? How about when I pull out my gun and point it at your head? I'd say, the intent to try and cause harm was there from the moment I started complaining that you should be moved from your freely chosen spot.
Clear and present danger only applies to speech, as in, if you're on a airplane and suddenly shout, "I have a bomb!" You no longer have the First Amendment protecting your speech. Placing your hands on someone against their wishes is simply assault and/or battery depending on the subjects actions. Speech then becomes irrelevant and so does the concept of clear and present danger.
Again, it depends on the intent. I watched Patten Oswalt's stand-up special on Comedy Central last night. He emphasized Obama's middle name as a lead up to the punch-line of a joke. I see nothing threatening in this, in fact, I found it wuite funny. A redneck at a rally yelling it out in obvious anger while holding signs implying that Muslims can't be trusted or shouldn't be elected, might or might not be threatening behavior. It would depend on the specific circumstances. If that person advocates violence, then it is threatening and therefore, in my opinion, should be stopped or at least watched very closely.
Well, the FBI and Secret Service can and do take those declarations very seriously and do monitor people like that. Hundreds of cases each year, in fact. But it's still just speech. And I don't think what that man said, which is mention his middle name in what sounded like derision, as something we need to take more seriously. Even if that guy flat out stated that he hates Arabs and hates Obama, he's free to believe what he wants so long as his actions (or words in some cases) don't correspond to a threat of violence.
Again, define clear and present danger. Is it when they actually say "Let's kill him!" Is it when he gets 5, 10, 25, 50, 100 people to agree with him? Is it when the gun appears? Is it only after the gun is fired? I agree it is a fine line to walk between protecting someone's rights and protecting the peace. I'm a strong liberal libertarian (as I define it), but I find advocating violence in a racist or bigoted way to be an abrogation of your right, it has as its intended effect, and outcome that leads to violence and infringement of someone's rights.
That doesn't sound very libertarian to me, as you freely want to deny people the right to believe whatever belief they wish.
So, I guess that's where I draw the line: when the intent is to infringe on someone's rights, regardless of whether that infringement is carried out at that time. What someone says can easily plant a seed in someone else's mind who may not have the same restraint or rationality.
It is definitely on a case by case basis. The line is certainly not clear. Some instances are more cut and dry, but there are some threats that are veiled, intentionally so. Like, "Just watch your back," as opposed to "I am going to stab you in the neck."

"I love the man that can smile in trouble, that can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. 'Tis the business of little minds to shrink, but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death. " Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Perdition, posted 08-24-2009 5:00 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Perdition, posted 08-24-2009 6:01 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 30 of 45 (520883)
08-24-2009 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Taz
08-24-2009 5:29 PM


Re: The intolerance of tolerance
I wasn't talking about people ignoring the KKK. I was talking about people ignoring the racists that were the backbone of the McCain/Palin rallies.
How do you know that "racists" were/are the "backbone" of the McCain/Palin rallies? Aren't you yourself now in danger of the very thing you condemn? You are making an impromptu determination that the backbone of Republicans are comprised of inherent racists without having any way of actually knowing that beyond conjecture. Are you not then making sweeping allegations and generalizing? Isn't that what racists do?
I do, however, accuse the republican party of silently encouraging the latent racism by not strongly and adamantly speak out against the racist crowds that have flocked to their support.
I'm curious, are you all for blatant racism and against latent racism? Does Reverend Jeremiah Wright get a pass on his blatant racist views? Maybe it isn't really a matter of Republican or Democrats. Because both parties, by the sole fact that they are the two largest parties in the US, are on some level going to attract some racists. That's kind of unavoidable.

"I love the man that can smile in trouble, that can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. 'Tis the business of little minds to shrink, but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death. " Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Taz, posted 08-24-2009 5:29 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Taz, posted 08-24-2009 9:55 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 32 of 45 (520891)
08-24-2009 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Perdition
08-24-2009 6:01 PM


Re: The intolerance of tolerance
If it was "merely" a racist attitude, then while I abhor the sentiment, he does have every right to say it. The problem is, someone can encourage, or even outright command violence without using clear, unambiguous statements to that effect.
Yes, and there are statutes for that too, like, inciting a riot. Mentioning somebody's middle name in a rather snarky way, I don't think, qualifies.
In an extreme case, if we have a conspiracy of people who are looking for an opening to cause someone harm, and have worked out a code to facilitate that goal, the lines become murkier. FOr instance, saying, "The geese are flying south," isn't, on the surface, a violent statement, but if the intention behind it is to send a message saying, "he's not protected, SHOOT!" then it is an inducement to violence.
Which is fine, so long as we have credible evidence pointing to the fact that "the geese are flying south" is actually code for some nefarious act and not based upon hearsay.
People showing up to healthcare debates with guns implies a willingness to do violence. The debate didn't even touch tangentially on the second amendment, there were more than enough security forces to forestall violence, so what was the purpose of the guns? The people who carried them said they had no violent intentions, but it is easy to see how others would get the wrong impressions and react violently to the sight.
Well, that in and on if itself is an illegal act. So based upon that it is an arrestable offense.
The problem is trying to figure out the intention or probable outcome of a particular instance of speech. We should err on the side of freedom, except when to do so would allow undue potential peril to others.
Agreed, as long as it is done within the confines of the law.
My view on most things is "People should be free to do as they wish as long as their actions do not infringe on this right in others." Violence is a strong infringement of others' rights and as such, should be quelled before it happens.
Agreed.

"I love the man that can smile in trouble, that can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. 'Tis the business of little minds to shrink, but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death. " Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Perdition, posted 08-24-2009 6:01 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Perdition, posted 08-25-2009 10:38 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 44 of 45 (565827)
06-21-2010 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Taz
08-24-2009 9:55 PM


Re: The intolerance of tolerance
McCain/Palin rallies attracted a lot of racists. In fact, some of these rallies seemed to have nothing but people yelling out vile racist speeches. The fact that neither McCain nor Palin... nor anyone else in the republican party stood up and condemned these vile outbursts.
Racists come in all walks of life, and both of the major parties in the US attract racists. It's an inevitable fact.
Is the republican party racist
No, like anything else, you could find racists hiding amongst Republicans and Democrats. That of course does not mean that the parties are therefore racist. You know, there are black, latino, asian, and gay Republicans.
Do you or do you not agree that people were yelling out vile racist comments at McCain/Palin rallies? Do you not agree that not once did McCain nor Palin said anything to condemn these outbursts?
Irrelevant. You could hear racial epithets at an Obama speech and his supporters too. All that matters is what the politician believes, not what some fringe supporter believes.
You're seriously comparing what Wright said to "white folks" yelling out death to Obama and referring to him as a monkey? Is this the twilight zone where you can't recognize the difference?
If anything, Wright's attitude came from residual affects of segregation and other institutionalized racism in this country. White folks have absolutely no excuse to feel that way.
Spare me the white guilt. Racism is racism. Period. Again, all that matters is what the candidate believes, as far as I'm concerned.
Shit, our own Vice President, Biden, the human gaffe machine, uttered some very racist comments about Indian Americans. I suggest you check it out via YouTube.

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from mistaken conviction." — Blaise Pascal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Taz, posted 08-24-2009 9:55 PM Taz has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 45 (565829)
06-21-2010 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by xongsmith
06-18-2010 7:50 PM


Re: Wow this is shocking
I'm trying to remember who called Powell an ape. Can you refresh my memory? That is not funny at all. That is racist.
So what, though? Yeah, it's racist. The pertinent question is what do you want do about it? That's speech; ugly speech, but speech nonetheless.

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from mistaken conviction." — Blaise Pascal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by xongsmith, posted 06-18-2010 7:50 PM xongsmith has not replied

  
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