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Author
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Topic: Clades and Kinds
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Re: Nested clades
Hi cat,
Bluescat48 writes: This is why the term "kind" is useless in scientific classification. Well I am not trying to use it as a scientific classification. I am using it as a Biblical classification. God created all kinds. Man is the one that messed things up by trying to classify everything according to the process he imagines everything evolved from a non life form. I went into the ice cream shop and told the man I wanted some ice cream. He asked, "what kind of ice cream do you want". I said ice cream. He said, "look we have created over a hundred kinds of ice cream so what kind of ice cream do you want". I asked what kind he had. He said, "we have vanilla, chocolate, strawberry, walnut, pecan, butterscotch," he went on to name 108 different kinds of ice cream. I got the walnut kind. I said that to say this, God created every kind of everything that exists. If you don't like the way God did it take it up with Him. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 112 of 143 (531931)
10-20-2009 2:52 PM
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Reply to: Message 108 by Modulous
10-20-2009 1:20 PM
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Re: evidence of small scale macroevolution
Hi Mod,
Modulous writes: Could I not just suppose it fell? Sure you could since it existed. Now if you was at that cliff one day and there was no rock on it and there was no rock at the bottom of the cliff, but when you returned the next day there was a 100,000 ton rock at the bottom of the cliff, then what. First you observe that there is no indention in the ground as the rock is sitting on top of the ground (could not have come from outer space). There is no chuck of the cliff missing (so it did not break off something and land there). There are no tracks where heavy equipment moved the rock into place. It is heavier that flying machines could transport to that location. What would you need to know to determine how that rock got to the bottom of that cliff? I think you would have to know how that rock began to exist at the bottom of that cliff. So you would have to know how rock could form overnight to such a massive size.
Modulous writes: God created the first life form. It was single celled. Are you agreeing with Darwin then or just making fun? Problem is God said He did it a different way.
Modulous writes: Agreed. Fortunately I believe because of the scientific evidence so we're all good, eh? I got no problem with you having faith in what you believe. Just don't try to convince me to have faith in your belief that macroevolution ever took place without scientific verifiable reproducible evidence.
Modulous writes: How about if instead I produce scientific, verifiable, reproducible evidence that mankind descended from primate ancestors? Would that not satisfy you that life has evolved? Are you proposing to start with a modern human and begin to trace through the fossil record mankind back to where the split came according to evolution? The fossil record is all that will count as every kind of everything was created from the same materials by the same creator, having many things in common. You can not have any breaks in the lineage. BTW things change on a daily basis some for the better most for the worst.
Modulous writes: For instance can humans have evolved from a common ancestor with the great apes? Not if a life form produce the first life on earth. Because that life form said He created mankind by forming him from the dust of the earth and then breathing the breath of life into him. If a non life form produced the first life form on earth then anything would be possible. So far science has proved life from non life to be impossible and there is not any evidence that it has ever happened. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 108 by Modulous, posted 10-20-2009 1:20 PM | | Modulous has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Re: Nested clades
Hi cat,
bluescat48 writes: They wrote about what they observed and added what they thought to it. Actually no. One man wrote that God called the different creatures a kind. You and everyone else have added what they think Moses was saying when he said God called them a kind.
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Re: Nested clades
Hi Perdition,
Perdition writes: It's when you say stuff like this that shows you have no idea how evolution works, Evolution does not work, so what is there to know? Option A: A life form created life and all kinds which have existed those extinct and those existing on the earth today. Option B: Life arose from non life and from that life all life evolved into all kinds which have existed those extinct and those existing on the earth today. Do I have another option? Well Mod gave me: Option C: God created a single cell life form and it evolved into all kinds which have existed those extinct and those existing on the earth today. The problem with option c is that God said He did not do it that way. So I am back to option A & B. Maybe you would like to propose: Option D:????? God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 111 by Perdition, posted 10-20-2009 2:31 PM | | Perdition has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Re: Nested clades
Hi Zen,
ZenMonkey writes: So an equivalent argument would be that God can't exist because I've never seen anyone turn into a pink gerbil when they pray, nor has anyone else ever seen it, and you can't prove that it ever happened. Well God came to earth in the form of a physical man. Lived on the earth for 33 1/2 years. Caused the blind to see, the lame to walk and the dead to live again. He took 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish and fed about 5k men plus women and children and there was 12 baskets full of fragments. He lay down his life and He took it up again in a body that was seen, felt, and recognized. So yes man has seen God and rejected Him. You have the same opportunity as well as everybody else in the world today.
ZenMonkey writes: Seriously, when you say that evolution isn't true because we've never seen anything like a bacterium turning into a horse - which according to you is a legitimate representation of a "kind" turning into a different "kind" - you're making exactly the same argument. I simply say evolution is not true because macroevolution has never been observed to happen. Neither is there any scientific evidence that it does happen or has ever happened in the past. There is only a belief that it has happened because small changes happen. Therefore macroevolution had to happen. That is not science. That is faith. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 115 by ZenMonkey, posted 10-20-2009 3:16 PM | | ZenMonkey has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Re: Nested clades
Hi Perdition,
Perdition writes: It's like me saying CHristianity proposes that all snakes can talk to me, therefore I reject all Christianity since it is impossible for snakes to talk. What I'm rejecting is not what others are accepting, so me refusing to consider Christianity on those grounds is wrong, at best, and lying at worst. I don't know what religion you know anything about but Christ followers will not tell you that all snakes can talk or even the one in Genesis can talk. Anyone who knows the Bible will tell you the Devil decieved Eve speaking to her through the snake. I take it you never met Ed the talking horse or Francis the talking mule.
Perdition writes: and option B (ICANTs interpretation of evolution, which is completely different from what most people accept as a definition for evolution, which is my point) Definition of evolution as I understand it. Evolution is the change in hereditary traits in populations from generation to generation through changes in allele or variation of a gene. These changes are sufficient to explain all the diversity of life forms on earth today as well as those that are extinct. If you don't like my version I will look up RAZD'S definition. In Message 114I presented the option B refered to.
Option B: Life arose from non life and from that life all life evolved into all kinds which have existed those extinct and those existing on the earth today. So if I leave off Life arose from non life I get the same thing just in simpler words. Your version Option D:
Perdition writes: Yeah, evolution: Life exists, somehow, whether through natural or supernatural means. It then began, through imperfect replication, to change, and through that change, new life forms have arisen that are distinct from the previous lifeforms. This process is enough to explain all the current and past life, as we know it. Do you actually believe there is a possibility that life on earth began to exist because of a supernatural means? Science proves the non life source both of us presented has so far been proven impossible with loads of money and time spent trying to prove it can.
Perdition writes: Added By Edit: The problem is, you have no idea what evolution claims, Knowing what evolution claims and knowing what is necessary for life to form are two different things. Without life there is nothing to evolve. RAZD has some great post's on the process of evolution and we don't disagree until we get to macroevolution which there is no scientific evidence of ever happening. When it comes to macroevolution you have to accept it on faith. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 116 by Perdition, posted 10-20-2009 3:36 PM | | Perdition has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 122 of 143 (531968)
10-20-2009 5:32 PM
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Reply to: Message 119 by Modulous
10-20-2009 4:09 PM
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Re: evidence that isn't evidence
Hi Mod,
Modulous writes: No he didn't, he said he did it by creating the first life as a single celled being. Now we have established a theistic origin - how does that impact evolution exactly? Book, chapter, and verse where God said that.
Modulous writes: Why can a life form not produce the first life on earth, having designed it to change? He could but if He said how he created all the different kinds of life there was nothing left to evolve. But yes things were designed to change, wear out.
Modulous writes: It sounds like your argument is not "If you don't know where life originated you can't say it evolved" but rather "Yahweh said they didn't evolve" That is not my argument. My argument is if you don't know how life began to exist you do not know whether it evolved or not. If life began to exist from non life then it could do anything as it already had. If a life form created life then it was created as He says it was. Not the way we want Him to have created it. We don't have a choice in the matter. Do you have a third option of how life began to exist?
Modulous writes: It seems to me that you are just saying that if evidence of "cross-kind" evolution was presented it to you that would not be sufficient evidence that life has evolved. That doesn't make any sense to me, could you clarify? I plowed and rode a mule which is the ofspring of a horse kind and a and an ass kind. Why should I have a problem with that? Or anything similar. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 119 by Modulous, posted 10-20-2009 4:09 PM | | Modulous has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 123 by Modulous, posted 10-20-2009 6:18 PM | | ICANT has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Re: Nested clades
Hi Perdition,
Perdition writes: Do you actually believe there is a possibility that life on earth began to exist because of a supernatural means? Do I believe it's possible? Yes. DO I believe it actually happened? No, and I won't until we're shown some evidence, any evidence, of something that is supernatural. Does the truth care what I think? Not a whit. DOes evolution care where the life came from? Not a whit.
Then you shouldn't mind one whit if I do not jump on the evolution bandwagon until somebody produces scientific verifiable reproducible evidence of how life began to exist on earth.
Perdition writes: Science proves the non life source both of us presented has so far been proven impossible with loads of money and time spent trying to prove it can. Science has done nothing of the sort, So far science has not been able to produce one spark of life with all the equiptment and manpower devoted to that end.
Perdition writes: It all depends on your definition of macroevolution, It doesn't depend on my definition of macroevolution. I read on the link RAZD posted that there was no evidence macroevolution had taken place.
Macroevolution encompasses the grandest trends and transformations in evolution, such as the origin of mammals and the radiation of flowering plants. Macroevolutionary patterns are generally what we see when we look at the large-scale history of life. It is not necessarily easy to "see" macroevolutionary history; there are no firsthand accounts to be read. You have to figure out from the available evidence you have that it took place. Since you don't know it took place, and you have no evidence it took place then you only have faith that you are correct in your conclusion that it did take place. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 121 by Perdition, posted 10-20-2009 5:16 PM | | Perdition has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 127 of 143 (532005)
10-20-2009 8:11 PM
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Reply to: Message 126 by Blue Jay
10-20-2009 7:30 PM
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Re: Nested clades
Hi jay,
Bluejay writes: So, when you said that you realize evolutionists do not think organisms transform into other types of organisms... you were lying? Heaven forbid. I just don't think evolutionist here believe that macroevolution has to take place to have all the different kinds of creatures. If you think so go back and read all the posts. Everybody says all the little micro evolution that takes place is sufficient to produce all the life forms on earth. Problem is the fossil record does not agree. I'll not comment on the other. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 126 by Blue Jay, posted 10-20-2009 7:30 PM | | Blue Jay has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Re: Nested clades
Hi cat,
bluescat48 writes: So then explain why the bible writers got it all wrong. I didn't know they did. I know a lot of atheist think so.
Well according to my avatar which is what the earth in Genesis looked like the land mass was pretty flat. If it was smaller then it would have been closer to flat. So I can see how someone could think that. But the Bible does not teach that the earth is flat. The land mass would have also had four corners.
bluescat48 writes: fixed earth, I don't get a fixed earth out of the Bible. I get a round one that is hung in space with nothing to hold it up.
bluescat48 writes: an impossible flood which has an indeterminate number of "kinds"+ 8 humans, With God nothing is impossible. I tell you what, you catalog all the different kinds of creatures that is present on the earth today and those that have gone extinct in the past 6k years. Then start a thread and I will see if I can figure how to get them all on the ark. The last time I designed one I had 18 acres of storage space in it. I believe I could get a lot more when I know the number of all the creatures and can determine their size.
bluescat48 writes: listing bats as birds, The Hebrew word transliterated `atalleph appears in the Bible 2 times and there is no mention of bird in either one of them. So do you have something I don't have?
bluescat48 writes: insects with 4 legs There is no Hebrew word that translates as insect(s). Unless you know something I don't.
bluescat48 writes: As for Moses, he wrote nothing, if he compiled anything it was hieroglyphics since the Israelites had no alphabet until they adopted the Phoenician alphabet in the 10th century BCE, at least 300 years after Moses. Moses lived around 1300 BC. He was adopted into the Royal family in Egypt. Therefore he was raised as an Egyptian and would have had access to and been taught all Egyptian knowledge for 40 years of his life. Since Egypt had a language that had existed for some 2100 years prior to Moses birth and education in Egypt. Why do you think Moses could not write the things he was supposed to have written? He would have been educated in the Late Egyptian language that was used for religious literature and for communication. What makes you think Moses did not teach Aaron and all the people as they wandered around for 40 years? The decendants of Jacob had been making bricks for 400 years in Egypt and could communicate with the Egyptians. They would not have any problem making clay tablets for Moses to write on. They probably had made them for the Egyptian's to write on as they were the slave labor. So you just keep on believing whatever you desire to believe. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 131 of 143 (532024)
10-20-2009 9:54 PM
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Reply to: Message 128 by Blue Jay
10-20-2009 9:20 PM
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Re: Nested clades
Hi jay,
Bluejay writes: just like your likelihood of having diabetes can be predicted based on your genealogy). So tell me why I am borderline diabetic when none of my ancestors has ever had any diabetes? I had a aunt that died of cancer at age 33 and my dad died at 67 with Alzheimer's The baby of the family is 82 and everyone else lived to at least 86. Most died in their 90's and 3 lived to be over a 100. As this is way off topic could you respond by e-mail.
Bluejay writes: Okay, so you're not arguing that we need transmutation of kinds for our theory to work: I am arguing that you don't believe you need transmutation of kinds for your theory to work. Macroevolution would be required for Darwin's theory to work even if God created the first single cell life form on earth and then let it evolve. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 128 by Blue Jay, posted 10-20-2009 9:20 PM | | Blue Jay has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 133 of 143 (532027)
10-20-2009 10:13 PM
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Reply to: Message 130 by Coyote
10-20-2009 9:51 PM
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Re: Distinction between origins and evolution
Hi Coyote,
Coyote writes: Here are five hypothesis regarding the origin of the first life forms. Do you have any scientific verifiable reproducible evidence for any of the hypothesis you presented? You want to get technical. If you don't have such evidence they should be discussed in a philosophy thread as that is what it is.
Philosophy is the study of general and fundamental problems concerning matters such as existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language Source The one I believe in is not listed. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 130 by Coyote, posted 10-20-2009 9:51 PM | | Coyote has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 136 by Coyote, posted 10-20-2009 11:13 PM | | ICANT has not replied |
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