About that Boat - Noah's Ark

In exactly the same way evolutionists cant recreate the big bang. That the chinese could create a ship that no shipbuilder today could recreate should tell you that no creationist would be able to recreate the ark today. Pretty simple really.Funny how you guys like to point to the 'signs' of cosmic evolution and the big bang, yet when you cannot reproduce it, it is irrelevant to its truth. However you seem surprised at the difficulty of creationists recreating a ship indeed specified by God. Are you all missing the point ? What would possible stop GOD from preventing massive tidal waves from affecting the Ark ? He can make it rain and cover the entire Earth with water, but ofcourse He'll have no control over how rough the sea is around the ark.Discussing the feasibility of the Ark floating is one thing, especially if its suppose to be a myth, however trying to disprove its existance based on the obvious abundance of Tsunami's that had to be around is really futile.[This message has been edited by Zealot, 09-02-2003][This message has been edited by Zealot, 09-02-2003]

Nope, difference is that you choose to claim that the Ark must have been a myth because its not structurally possible (or so we believe) to recreate the Ark TODAY,or atleast because no-one has managed to do so.My reply is that its not possible to recreate Big Bang today either, infact it cannot be recreated, not even on a small scale, but that is a entirely different topic. Or if you choose to use an example of evolution, recreate the evolution of a Horse!Cant ? Well.. must be a myth then ?If you want to use the argument of 'there is no proof of the Ark' , feel free, but that is not the topic. The topic is the structural feasibility of the Ark, read the first post. Hmm, all of todays scientists and NA's cant figure out how a 400foot wooden boat could float, yet
you're surprised that a 450 foot boat (whatever) can ? Urm precisely, yet you chose to call it a myth because todays Creationists haven't replicated the Ark. Well, in 3 lines you managed to sum up your daft statement of Creationists reproducing the Ark.

No Yaro, I think you are missing the point here. The entire topic was about how it was possible for the Ark to have existed with its specifications.The Chinese boat was constructed only 50 feet shorter than the Ark. Some people ahve claimed that it is impossible for the Ark to have been built AT ALL, and at that be seaworthy, given the specifications. In fact a 400 foot boat of wood, was considered impossible, however there is proof that it had been done, however even with todays technology it cannot be replicated. Noah had something like 100-120 years to build the Ark. He had the help of 8 Men and he had God's specific guidance. He did not require a degree in shipbuilding.I think you misunderstand Christianity. The reason the Great Flood is written in the Bible is because it was a clearly a MASSIVE event in the Christian faith. The world was destroyed by water, but the next time it is destroyed, it will be by fire. Why God chooses to do things the way He does is beyond us. He can do anything He wants to do, yet he chooses to flood the Entire Earth. Perhaps this is symbolic to being baptised. Point is that God doesn't NEED to function to the laws of nature and man. He could have infact simply put the Ark there overnight had He chose to do that, but He didn't.This is not about how likely Noah could have constructed such a great ship, its about whether such a ship would have (by man's standards) been able to stay afloat. I think it has pretty much been answered, thats why the new angle is to attack the amount of food the Ark had to store and not its sea-worthyness.

good try crashfrog... set the trap. Either way I will step in it for you and await your reply.A flood (worldwide) clearly had to happen historically. However THIS topic deals with the actuall Ark and its structural feasibility.If you care to discuss evidence that a worldwide flood did or did not happen, I think its another topic. See the one about Food in the flood.

Nope, I think the topic is about the Ark. Specificially trying to refute the possibility of a structure of that size being able to stay afloat for 110 days (not a year) as some seem to believe. YOU chose to only believe the ARK to be structually possibly IF you could SEE it with your own eyes. Irrespective of the fact that another wooden craft had been constructed only 50 feet shorter than the ark.Again the topic is NOT about whether the ARK actually existed, or whether there was a global flood, but IF it would have been possible to construct a craft of such magnitude and managed to keep it afloat.That is precisely how you are trying to disprove that the Flood 'myth' in Genesis is accurate, by proving that the boat would have been structurally impossible. I think that has (in theory) been shown to be rather possible in this thread.You then chose to call it a 'myth' because today it coudln't be reproduced. Well I tell you what. We know that there existed a 400 foot boat, so why not try created that first, and if possible, surely
then if they cannot create a 450 foot boat, it would throw some suspicion on the measurements of the ARK ? You want me to prove that a 5 000 year old ship existed ? You dont need to see it with your own eyes, but yet you criticise Creationists for not 'cutting to the chase and building it' to prove it could have existed ?Ok, well taking about cutting to the chase ... how about some lab tests trying to reproduce a mini 'big bang' or a mosquito mutating eventually into a bat like creature ? Something I can see with my own eyes ? Funny because there is SO MUCH evidence it happened, but just no way of actively replicating the entire process. I can tell you right now, if scientists can show how the offspring of a frog eventually results in some form of massive aligator from some lab experiments, there REALLY wont be much of a discussion anymore
Infact while you're at it, please start off with abiogenesis to show exactly how the first life evolved, because we all know plants and animals dont share common ancestors , but then again I forget Abiogenesis has nothing to do with Evolution, so we all have to assume that 'somewhere' life began and then it evolved. How pray tell would you like to see evidence of the Ark ?

Again, that is not the topic of this discussion. Whether or not a global flood occurred is irrelevant to the structural feasibility of the Ark with the specific specification. Ok. Lets try this and add in Yaro or Yabo's (non iron hinge) information.1. There is evidence of a 400 foot boat existing (now it seems without metal hinges).2. We believe the Ark to be 450 feet.3. If we cannot reproduce today a 400 foot boat, which we know from evidence has existed, how would you like us to reproduce a 450 Ark ?Simply put 'A' exists, and 'A' < 'B'. We cannot create 'A' because 'A' is too big, so how would an inability to produce 'B' disprove its existance ? No-one has managed to produce anything in modern times close to the 400 foot boat, so your speculation that it leaked like sieves is just speculation. As for Metal hinges, see Yabo's post... but I cant verify its accuracy. I believe you suggested that Creationists were too afraid of actually building a 450 foot Ark, and that it clearly must be a Myth because else they would have done so."I'm sure you are right. The hardcore would have excuses. I do think such a project would be huge blow to the creationist movement, though. And I think they know that." msg 25.My response is saying that in the same way that it is impossible to reproduce a Big Bang and Macro Evolution, it would be impossible to recreate the Ark, thus it seems ironic that you choose to use a lack of 'recreatable proof' as your basis of dismissal.

I do read your posts, but lets take your entire quote into consideration, not just some parts.
The remainder of your quote, you chose to omit...quote.(msg 71)" This latter, I am convinced is the reason that no one has attempted to build an ark despite the many voices claiming the ark to be perfectly reasonable and well designed. "Yes, you are saying that a failed replica would not prove the story wrong, but you are convinced the reason Creationists dont build it, is because they know it would fail and be a great blow to the theory.Rather sweeping statement considering the original took 120 years to complete and its a rather expensive expedition to build an ARK purely to prove it is possible. Not to mention that Creationists believe Noah to have received divine wisdom and guidance by God himself in creating it.Yes, it would be humanly possible to try and replicate the Ark, but not even slighly feasible. Now my quest is that 1st Athiest should try build a 400 foot ship (which we know existed) and then once they have achieved that, they can ask Creationists to build one of 450 feet. If they cant even get to 400 feet, well then we know there is no point trying for 450 now is there..cheers

No mind game. You might see it as a mind game, but the very basic principles of Christianity (for instance) is very opposed to any type of deceit. No point in believing in Christ and falsifying evidence... 120 years is the time from which God announced his intentions to flood the Earth to the time the flood happened. God does not start to complain when Noah is 500 Off topic again, but for arguments sake, we can even give a time frame of 60 years if you so choose. Still a pretty long time to construct an ark or a type of wood that could well have become extinct. Yeah, constructing a floating 450 foot Ark would make us all believers wouldn't it ? If only building the Ark would make you a believer Perhaps this might help...Luke 6 vs24 (About a man in Hell)He called out, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in agony in these flames.' 25 But Abraham said, "Child, remember that during your lifetime you received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 Besides all this, between you and us a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who might want to pass from here to you cannot do so, and no one can cross from there to us.' 27 He said, "Then, father, I beg you to send him to my father's house 28 for I have five brothersthat he may warn them, so that they will not also come into this place of torment.' 29 Abraham replied, "They have Moses and the prophets; they should listen to them.' 30 He said, "No, father Abraham; but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 He said to him, "If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "Building an Ark... wont convert anyone. We dont even know for sure the type of wood used, what it was constructed of, all we know is that the Great Designer was God himself ! Can we even today create a 400 foot wooden boat using the latest technologies ? Sheesh, if we can , we litterally have to extend that length by 8. 25 metres to reach the lenght of the ARK, yet that is impossible! Can you show evidence to support your claim that the Chinese that constructed the 400foot ship used metal works ?[This message has been edited by Zealot, 09-04-2003]