Elitism and Nazism

1.ELITISMFreidrich Nietzsche, one of the founders of modern existentialism was fascinated by the moral implications of the theory of natural selection, as proposed by Darwin. From Darwin's beliefs about the survival of the fittest, Nietzsche believed that a higher species would one day come to rule the planet. Now Darwin never stated what Nietzsche did in such clear and provocative terms, it follows to that he must have believed that as we continue to evolve a more perfect race of people will emerge and possibly one day a perfect race would emerge. When Darwin wrote of the strong surviving and of their offspring becoming even stronger, he was saying that the strong would dominate. When he stated that the weak would either die or produce even weaker offspring, he was saying that the weak would eventually die out. Thus, a race of superman or superior species is sure to emerge. So just for the record Darwin and Nietzsche were in fact on the same page. Nietzsche predicted that out of the human race would emerge individuals whose strength, abilities and intellectual capacity would mark them as representatives of the new stage in evolutionary development.Unfortunately, some of Nietzsche's followers came to view themselves as these representatives. They fancied themselves as elite individuals. Suffering from illusions of grandeur, these elitists viewed themselves as "beyond good and evil." (Those were Nietzsche's words when describing the race he believed would soon emerge).Of course I don’t have do explain how dangerous this belief of elitism is. Nietzsche would have been horrified had he lived to seem the damage that these "elitists" would cause. However, he should have known better. If God is dead, as Nietzsche claimed, then evolution is the law of the universe. In such a universe, the most powerful survive and POWER becomes the basic human drive. Evolutionists insist on natural selection, or "survival of the fittest"(according to Herbert Spencer). Natural Selection justifies, among other things, fascist values and the belief that the higher breed are free to conquer and breed as they please. (Of coarse most believers in natural selection today would shudder with everyone else at such thoughts. But does that change the theory?)2.NAZISMAmong those who used Nietzsche's thoughts to serve his own purpose was Adolf Hitler. Hitler institutionalized Nietzsche as a kind of official philosopher. The soldiers in Hitler's army were forced to carry copies of Nietzsche's "Thus Spake Zarathustra" in their knapsacks as they went in to battle.Adolf Hitler was influenced by the writings of Charles Darwin. His treatment of the Jews at least in part can be attributed to his belief in evolution. To quote P.Hoffman who wrote Hitler's Personal Security, "Hitler believed in struggle as a Darwinian principle of human life that forced every person to try to dominate all others." Darwin also believed in this constant struggle for survival.Sir Arthur Keith, a well-known evolutionist, says that Hitler was only trying to apply the principles of Darwinian evolution to his treatment of Jews. "The means Hitler adapted to secure the destiny of his race and people were organized slaughter, which has drenched Europe in blood... Such conduct is highly immoral as measured by every scale of ethics, yet Germany justifies it; it is consonant with tribal or evolutionary morality. Germany has reverted back to its tribal past, and it is demonstrating to the world, in their naked ferocity, the methods of evolution."So, from the mouth of a prominent evolutionist we hear that Hitler was only being consistent in his treatment of Jews. He was simply applying the principles of Darwin's natural selection.This is frightening that such a theory could be used to justify the attempted elimination of a type of people.

Paul the piece certainly isnt propoganda. I did not add it for your enjoyment but for your benefit. Now you know. Also, you have several 'even if's' in your response which tells me that possibly you are having trouble disputing my very short piece. The purpose of the piece was to ask the question "What did Darwin or Nietczche think would happen as a result of their beliefs of survival of the fittest and of the super-race?" What happened is Elitism and Nazism.
Mammathus, I am not an Elitist, a fundamentalism and I am certainly not ramming any thing down anyone else's throat. In fact this web site has a great number more evolutionists who believe strongly than it does creationists, so that ramming accusation can go both ways. If you dont like my pieces so much, simply stop reading them. Also your accusation that Christianity justifies slavery, facism, and denigration of women is unsupported by any evidence, unlike my presentation stating the harmful affects of Dariwinian and Nietzcheian thought.
Hitler may have been born Catholic but that is pretty much where his Christian life ends. Many Christian did support Hitler. This is unfortunate, however much of this support came while his policies towards the Jews were still widely unknown. In any event the support was still unfortunate. Many Christians did not support him though and died fighting against him (Bonhoeffer).
Also fitness was and is not all to evolution and I believe I more specifically mentioned natural selection. Hitler was consistent with the beliefs of natural selection, and more particularily with Herbert Spencer's 'survival of the fittest.' I really believe Darwin would have opposed Nazism but my question is from his theory, how could he not forsee something along the lines of Nazism?
I also disagree with your last statement for I have never seen modern Christianity even begin to compare with Nazism. Please in the future if you only wish to blurt out mindless insults, go somewhere else.
Alex you raise an interesting point. It does not bring into question what I am saying, but I do see what you are getting at. The only diffence is there is nothing in Christian literature (i.e. New Testament) that would justify senceless killing. Elitism and Nazism is different and I gave evidence in first article. No need to repeat it.
Mr. Jack that may be true (I do not know the numbers off the top of my head). I did not quote from Mein Kamph. If you wish you can re-look at the evidence I gave and then ask again if you are wondering where I got certain assertions.
General

Mammathus
It almost would seem a waste of time responding to you because I think your attitude is rather immature. Please use a little more class when debating please.
I will again try to clear up the misconceptions that you have generated.
1. Can you take a step out from behind your firewall and explain with detail first how I have been "making wild unsupporting accusations to people in the science field"?
2. My statements do not show Christian fundamentalism but simply the Creationist side of the debate. If you agreed with it you'd be on this side. But since you don't it still seems silly that you would dismiss it only because you disagree with it.
"My utter lack of science"? Where does that come from. I have been hailed from both sides in my writings as a person who understands both sides. Just because you dont like it, doesnt mean I have an utter lack of knowledge in this field.
"Historical Revisionism?" Come on...
And I have never been known to sidestep religious atrocities committed by my own church. As a member of the Roman Church certainly I have a lot to be ashamed of. However those were not my sins and I am still proud that the Church has turned away from certain wrongs.
3. Concerning your links to pages showing how Christianity justifies different crimes, I started to read it but I have not the time to make an in depth response. I didn't find much merit in the one I quickly scanned over. If you would like to make a case for any of those, simplify them and most them on here where I will be more likely to respond.
4. BElieve it or not, but i am losing interest in your responses.I could continue to respond to your points but it will be a waste of time.
5. YOur bitterness about "Elitism and Nazism" comes not from my lips but from biographer P.Hoffman and respected evolutionist Sir Arthur Keith. However because it is I who is the Creationist I must bear the burden.
Very objective of you Mammathus. (Do you note the sarcasm?)

MammuthusWhile I have not read wordswordsman's post yet, if he did write what you say he did they he is without a doubt mistaken. Christian should mean the same as Christ-like, and I know for a fact that to be supportive of slavery is not Christ-like. (The same would go of 'Christian' during the Holocaust. I dont deny many played a part. What I do take issue with is the fact again they are certainly not Christ-like and so not real Christians. But if there are many like this that is the Churches fault and not those who have a real belief in CHrist).In no way do I minimalize the holocaust. It was arguably the worst atrocity of the certury. (By the way, I also was in the Dachau camp over the summer and the things that happened there bother me very much also. Just as the sign there says in five different languages, 'Never Again,' it is a sobering visit). It was terrible but how does that make me shy away from Darwin and Nietczhe's involvement (even if it was just promoting a vague theory). These are not just my opinions. As I stated, and this you failed to respond to, but prominent evolutionists also accept Darwin and Nietczhe's involvement. Oh, wait---you have never heard of Sir Arthur Keith? If I made known such ignorance you would go off with the most bizare of accusations 'fundamentalist' 'utter lack of science' etc. All I will suggest is look him up. Your lack of knowledge on a particular source in no way discredits him.
His quote is on science also, actually his field of study 'evolution.' I didnt realize you considered evolution a religion.
General

Here are just a few historical facts to combat Mammathus' mindless speculation that Christians aided in the Nazi persecution of Jews. (The only detail he offered in his defence was that Hitler was Catholic, which more accurately would be he was born Catholic. However I have already dealt with this misconception.1. In Sophia, Bulgaria the Nazis rounded up hundreds of Jews and had them imprisoned behind barbed wire enclosures near the train station. We can only try to imagine these Jews waiting to be shipped off to Auschwitz. Panic stricken, sobbing hysterically, questioning God, and maybe a few calmly waiting. I try to put myself in that crowd, standing there that evening waiting for the train to come to take me away to my death. Out of what may have been a dark and rainy night a figure emerged and made his way toward the Jews. A huge man, very tall, and wearing the mitter that Orthodox prelates wear on their heads, this man looked like a giant. His long white beard flowing down over his black robe; and his stride so great that his several hundred followers had to hustle to keep up. He approaches the barbed wire enclosure that is being guarded by SS men. The armed guards order him not to enter. Defiantly, the Metropolitan Kyril laughs, brushes aside their guns and enters the area where the Jews are awaiting their fate. The jews close in on him wondering what his purpose is. They see him raise his arms and in a loud voice with words that will change the fate of a nation he yells, "Where you go, I will go! Your people will be my people!" The frightened Jews become a mob that could overtake their capturers. They cheer on their new friend just as the Christians outside the barbed wire cheer on. People in the city see what is happening and come out also and voice their support for their Jewish brothers. The trains arrive and the SS guards so afraid of the potential danger wisely board alone.
Because of one man not one Bulgarian Jew died in a concentration camp.2. In Denmark when the Nazi's ordered that Jews display their ethnic identity by wearing an armband with the Star of David on it, something awesome happened. Knowing their fate if they would identify themselves as Jews, the Danish King a Christian man put on an armband with the Star of David on it and he walked among his people. When his people saw him identify himself with the Jews they too followed his example and all wore armbands. The people of Denmark (who are mostly Christian) let the Nazi's know that they were one with the Jewish people and that whatever atrocities the Nazis would commit against Jews, they would have to commit them against Christian too. Guess what happened? The Nazis backed off.
3. Hans Frank the Nazi leader of the occupied Poland was likely looking for a shred of legitimacy when he hinted repeatedly that an invitation to dinner from the archbishop would be well received. Acrhbishop Adam Stefan Sapieha an aristocrat and one of the most powerful people in the former Poland offered. The Archbishop sat opposite to the leader of the Occupied Poland at Sapieha formal dinner table. Dinner was served. Looking at his meal Frank glared at Archbishop Sapieha. Sapieha offered a response to the meal of black bread (made partly from acorns), jam (made from beets) and ersatz coffee, "This is the food that is made available from the food coupons given by the Nazis. Certainly I, an archbishop could not risk reprimand or arrest by dealing with the black market." A furious Frank never asked for an invitation again from the Archbishop's house.
(This is not directly to do with Jews. However Sapieha refused to cooperate with the Nazis because he was disgusted with their treatment of Jews. What Sapieha did took courage and it shows that many did stand up to tyranny).4. When the Nazis invaded Holland and began sending Jews to the death camps, the Dutch Catholic church protested. The Nazis ordered them to be silent. They refused and on July 26, 1942 priests throughout the country read a pastoral letter from their pulpits denouncing the Nazis. Furious the Nazis rounded up many Catholic Jews.5. Ever hear of Maximillian Kolbe? Deitrich Bonhoeffer? What about Hugh O'Flaherty? And Pius XII is credited with saving 800 000 lives through secret deals. These are only a few of the many stories.To conclude the Christians (some calling themselves Chirstians did of coarse) did not aide in the Holocaust. In fact they did more than anyone else to help. This is not revisionism but fact.

Your Quote Percy
"After discovering that you were not the author of many of the words in your opening message in the Chemical Evolution thread, I decided to take a more careful look at this thread. Though I could not find on the Internet the original author of the opening post of this thread, after reviewing your other messages I am now convinced that they were not written by the same person, and that you did not write the opening message."First, this should not be under "Elitism and Nazism." If you have a problem with its content it should be brought to my attention under 'Chemical Evolution.'
Second, who are you to say what I have written and what I have not written. This is my piece, and while it does bear some terminology similarities to 'A Case for Faith' certainly it does not plagarize as you first suggested. Last time I checked the theory was the same regardless of the source.The reason you cannot find the original author on the Internet is because I have not put it on the Internet. However last year I did send out a nine part series to about fifty readers. Part I was titled "Different Theories on Man's Origins." Chemical Evolution was an excert from it. I could post the article on here, or I could email it to you. Or I could do neither. The choice is yours. Until then please keep your suspicions to yourself.General

Somehow this needs to be clarified.
I do not feel that the Christians and Catholics who participated in the Nazi atrocities should be absolved for their crimes. Perhaps I was difficult to understand earlier. No doubt there were many professing to be Christian who did commit crimes against the Jews. These should be punished and not excused. What I must have said in the wrong words is that in no way do they get they code of conduct from the teachings of Jesus, upon which Christians should reply. That is why I stated that these people were not real Christians. Becuase they were not Christ-like.