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Author | Topic: Elitism and Nazism | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Syamsu  Suspended Member (Idle past 5621 days) Posts: 1914 From: amsterdam Joined: |
I think it's more the case that you minimalize the holocaust by your constant lawyering against positions about it you don't like, but which are based on substantial amounts of evidence.
To refer to the religious motivation in "Mein Kampf", but to choose to omit the numerous references to selection in the work, to omit that the work is generally classed as social Darwinism by historians, generally recognized as similar to Haeckel's Darwinism. The Hitler youth was taught Darwinism, in Darwinist styled schools. How quaint, a political youth organization instructed in a modern scientific theory, and their schools styled by their chief educators on the principle of continuous selection. Now maybe you will ask references for all of that, but I'm not willing to provide, since it's just a game with you. You seek to minimalize the link between Darwinism and Nazism and put all your cleverness to work for that. regards,Mohammad Nor Syamsu
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Syamsu  Suspended Member (Idle past 5621 days) Posts: 1914 From: amsterdam Joined: |
You are misinformed, they weren't taught math in the Hitler schools, or gravity theory, that was taught in the regular school system, but they were taught Darwinism in the Hitlerschool.
You are referring to the regular German army, not the Nazi SS troops I think. The SS was typically explicitely anti-christian, although IMO in a paradoxical way this kind of anti-christianity is still an offshoot from Christianity. regards,Mohammad Nor Syamsu
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Syamsu  Suspended Member (Idle past 5621 days) Posts: 1914 From: amsterdam Joined: |
I see, now you make a joke of it all. That's how seriously you take the holocaust.
regards,Mohammad Nor Syamsu
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Syamsu  Suspended Member (Idle past 5621 days) Posts: 1914 From: amsterdam Joined: |
In the USA the same evil teachings were outlawed in many states for many years, as you can read in the John Scopes thread.
regards,Mohammad Nor Syamsu
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Syamsu  Suspended Member (Idle past 5621 days) Posts: 1914 From: amsterdam Joined: |
Sure the French and the Vichy regime....wow really impressive detailed knowledge you have..., about more or less insignificant side issues. The church tax which the Nazi's hated.... You have no clue. You are just posturing, intimidating, silencing, not discussing.
You have made up your mind that Darwinism had nothing much to do with Nazism, and any evidence like Hitleryouth being taught Darwinism in schools styled to Darwinist notions can not change that one little bit. regards,Mohammad Nor Syamsu
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Syamsu  Suspended Member (Idle past 5621 days) Posts: 1914 From: amsterdam Joined: |
It basically sounds like Darwinist interpretation of selection as "nature red in tooth and claw", in stead of my view of selection as "nature wet in penis and vagina", you have no case.
regards,Mohammad Nor Syamsu
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Syamsu  Suspended Member (Idle past 5621 days) Posts: 1914 From: amsterdam Joined: |
"Red in tooth and claw" selection focuses on struggle, as Darwinists do, "wet in penis and vagina" selection focuses on reproduction, as I do.
regards,Mohammad Nor Syamsu
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Syamsu  Suspended Member (Idle past 5621 days) Posts: 1914 From: amsterdam Joined: |
Well I just now violated your directive not to discuss comparitive selection vs my individual selection outside the free for all forum. I guess you should impose that restriction on others as well, otherwise it's not fair.
I had no idea I was consigned to the free for all forum, I thought only the subject comparitive selection vs individual selection was, because the discussion was repetitive. regards,Mohammad Nor Syamsu
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Syamsu  Suspended Member (Idle past 5621 days) Posts: 1914 From: amsterdam Joined: |
Yes I will abide by the forum guidelines and admin requests.
regards,Mohammad Nor Syamsu
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Syamsu  Suspended Member (Idle past 5621 days) Posts: 1914 From: amsterdam Joined: |
Below an excerpt from the schoolbook for the Hitleryouth in the subchapter titled Charles Darwin. The nazi website from where I originally copied the text is down since some time already.
( Official Handbook for Schooling the Hitler Youth, Handbuch fr die Schulungsarbeit in der Hitler Jugend Vom deutschen Volk und seinem Lebensraum Herausgeber: Fritz Brennecke Bearbeiter: Paul Gierlichs 1937 ) From Chapter 3 " Now under some circumstances these hereditarycarriers can undergo changes. They can become interchanged. They can add to or subtract from their length. Several clusters of hereditary carriers can remain in one cell. All these changes are enormously important. They actually bring about externally visible changes which are inheritable. In that way new races can appear. These changes, which are called mutations (after the Latin word MVTATIO = change), are not always a good thing for living beings. They often lead to damaging transformations. Above all sexual power is often lost. Also, externally stunted forms are frequent. In this case the process of selection sets in. Only that which is of value in the struggle for life remains permanent. We have seen therefore that the race is tied togetherbiologically, and to be sure by the hereditary carriers in the sex cells. New biological characteristics, and therewith new races, can arise only through material changes in these hereditary carriers. The ordinary environmental influences cannot bring about such changes. Only internal changes produce inheritable changes. Inheritance is in the long run always victorious over environmental influences. All arguments and political demands which are foundedon the belief in the power of environment are therefore false and weak. We have already said that many changes are damaging orunfavourable. We know of some cases in which injuries to the germ plasm have occurred. For example, injuries have come about because of X-rays, the misuse of alcohol, sexual diseases. This knowledge comes to us from experiments which have often meant the sacrifice of life itself. It is important for us to remove those injuries weknow about from the heritage of our people." --------------- Also quite surprising for a book that is to convince students many of whom were christian, is that in chapter one the book explicitely undermines christian teaching. ---------from Chapter 1: "The foundation of the National Socialist outlook on life is the perception of the unlikeness of men. If, at first, we relate this unlikeness solely to physical appearance, no one will wish to contest it. For it is all too apparent that the red skin, the yellow, the black, and the white are very different. Moreover, within the family of white men all people are not the same. Every attentive observer can recognise distinctions in physical size and shape. The colouring of the eyes, the hair and the skin is also very different But there are also distinctions among men with respect to mental and spiritual traits. This becomes very clear to us whenever different types of men converse about one and the same subject. To one person, for example, work is a curse from heaven, a punishment of God, and a burden to be avoided as much as possible. For another, on the contrary, it is a necessity of life which first gives the human being his true meaning. Again, for some, courage and loyalty are nothing but great stupidities. They would rather be live cowards than dead heroes. For others, however, courage and loyalty are the very marks by which they treasure and value a man. For them a promise once made is binding. They stick to it through good times and bad. They cannot live without honour and prefer death to cowardice. .... " Now why do we find in Free Masonry, Marxism, and theChristian church this mistaken teaching of the equality of all men? All three are striving more or less for power over the whole earth. therefore they must necessarily be international. They can never acknowledge the human ties of race, community, or nation if they do not wish to give up their own aims. In spite of this powerful opposition, however, therace idea goes on gaining ground. The truth gradually prevails. We need only think of the growing line up of states set for defence against the destructive influence of the Jews. And also we need to remember that the immigration laws of many states overseas do not let Jews or other undesirables into the country. However, we will not stick to superficialities, buttry to acquire greater clarity regarding this question. For only then can we understand rightly the fourth point of the program of the National Socialist German Workers' Party. It states: Only those who are comrades of our folk can be citizens of thestate. Only those who are of German blood, irrespective of religious belief, can be comrades of our folk. Consequently no Jews can be comrades of our folk. " --- Below is an often repeated quote on creationist sites of Hitler, from the book Hitler's tabletalk, which consists of a diary of conversations he had with his clique. It's the one time I've read Hitler use the complete term Natural Selection in stead of just referring to selection. Interestingly he uses the term in direct opposition to Christianity, which makes me think that he specifically wanted to do those things that Christianity forbids. This seems to me a reverse reflection of Christianity, and not an independent point of view separate from Christianity. (Hitler's tafelgesprekken, 1980, p38)(translated from Dutch version of Hitler's Tabletalk.) "10 october 1941, midday War is returned to it's primitive form. The war of peoples againstpeoples has been replaced by a different kind of war - a war for the possession of big spaces. Originally war was nothing other then a struggle for pastures. Presently war is nothing but a struggle for the riches of nature. Thanks to an inherent law these riches belong to those who conquers them. The big movement of peoples began from the east. With us ebb sets in, from west to east. This is in agreement with the laws of nature. Through the struggle, the elites are constantly renewed. The law of natural selection justifies this never ending struggle by letting the strongest win. Christianity is a rebellion against the law of nature, a protest against nature. Reasoned logically to it's ultimate end, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of human failure." regards,Mohammad Nor Syamsu
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Syamsu  Suspended Member (Idle past 5621 days) Posts: 1914 From: amsterdam Joined: |
Likewise I'm disgusted by the arrogant, intimidating and jocular attitude of evolutionists who have decided before looking at any evidence at all, that there is nothing much to the relationship between Darwinism and Nazism.
regards,Mohammad Nor Syamsu
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Syamsu  Suspended Member (Idle past 5621 days) Posts: 1914 From: amsterdam Joined: |
As I've said before....
Much the same of what I say has been said by many mainstream evolutionists about "survival of the fittest". Also much the same has been said about Haeckel's biogenetic law. They say the formulation is flawed, and in it's flaw it is conducive to Social Darwinism. Regardless of any flaw in scientific terms, it is clear that the judgemental language in Darwinism is conducive to judgementalism. Besides that Darwinists have used prosaic books as a mainstay to advance their science, blurring the distinction between Darwinism and Social Darwinism in the books. Chemistry, or physics is not actually advanced through prosaic books, that is peculiar to Darwinism. Also chemists and physicists do not use the word "goodness" to denote a physical property, that is peculiar to Darwinists. There is also no other science I know of which pretends to answer the question why something happens, in stead of answering how something happens, as Darwinists do, which then problemizes the distinction between purposeless and purposeful action. etc. So far what has been offered as counterargument is that science is neutral, and therefore there can be no meaningful relationship between Darwinism and Social Darwinism. Also called the naturalistic fallacy, saying that it is false to derive an ought from an is. The mistake in that argument is to assert that the neutrality of science is a fact, in stead of an ideal. regards,Mohammad Nor Syamsu
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Syamsu  Suspended Member (Idle past 5621 days) Posts: 1914 From: amsterdam Joined: |
[Replying in kind could result in suspension of posting privileges. --Admin]
I find it arrogant that you say I have a profound lack of knowledge about the issue, also since as far as I can tell my knowledge on the subject is wider then yours. I have more then enough knowledge on the subject for a discussion about it on an internetforum. I find it intimidating that you suggest I should be silent because of my lack of knowledge. Your jocular attitude is a rethorical trick to further sabotage meaningful discourse, your whole discourse is full of tricks. You don't really look at evidence, because you have defined science as neutral. Why would you go talking about the Vichy regime of all things? Could it be that you read in the newspaper recently that the French government is paying out victims of the Vichy regime and decided to prop up your knowledge with tidbits from the newspaper? You post the quotes from Mein Kampf but then you provide no argumentation about what these quotes mean. For instance what particular Christian sect does Hitler belong to? He treats Christ greatest as a fighter in stead of a sufferer, That is much distinct from most all the rest of Christianity which has Jesus on the cross suffering as it's central symbol. regards,Mohammad Nor Syamsu [This message has been edited by Admin, 09-11-2003]
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Syamsu  Suspended Member (Idle past 5621 days) Posts: 1914 From: amsterdam Joined: |
That it is conducive to judgementalism can be proven by your own personal experience of the theory. Because the language is conducive to judgementalism, Darwinists often use quotationmarks around words such as goodness, selfish, and also repeatedly say that words like that are not to be understood in a judgemental way.
It appears that you are arguing a strawman. Really I can't see the sense of having a comparitive theory, especially not in place of an individual one. It is just the same as the mechanism of comparitive mountainlength to me. There is no such mechanism, it doesn't exist. regards,Mohammad Nor Syamsu
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Syamsu  Suspended Member (Idle past 5621 days) Posts: 1914 From: amsterdam Joined: |
It's not really about the theory of evolution IMO it's more specifically about Natural Selection. "The Descent of Man" is Darwin's book on people not "Origin of Species", and in that book valuejudgement and "objective" statements of fact are in an inextricable mix. Darwin even wrote on such esoteric questions as to what the highest state of morality is for a person, as well as giving eugenic marriage advice.
If I remember correctly the main reason that the Nazi's didn't develop nuclear weapons is because a scientist gave a contaminated sample of some substance. Would the scientist be innocent if he had just done his job and given a proper sample? Is the knowledge how to make a nuclear bomb really separate from the device itself? You seem to consistently want to make some room for an absolute innocense in science that is really not reasonable considering the responsibility we have in for instance.... not blowing up the earth, or not wiping out an ecosystem. IMO nothing much is intrinsically good or bad, including people, so it doesn't mean much to say science isn't intrinsically good or bad. The case with Darwinism is different then with making nuclear bombs, because Darwinism influenced ideology. The science that went into the nuclear bomb didn't influence ideology. As far as I know Galton is one of the main founders of the statistical method. He was not some lay person who was out of his depth with Natural Selection. I don't know what version of selection he used, but there are many versions of selection even now. I don't agree with the General, since there is copious amount of evidence of anti-semitical teaching by Christian priests, and collaboration by Christian churches to eugenic programs. But Nazism especially in the higher ranks was still anti-christian IMO. regards,Mohammad Nor Syamsu
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