Logical fallicies in the bible

This is your interpretation. It is NOT what the script says.Regardless of context: What's not to understand??? He himself calls it evil and vengeance. You call it Justice.How is it justice to save women and children for target practice? Then they will know that I am the LORD, when I have made the land a desolation and a waste ..." Ezekiel 33:29 RSVI am aware that these people did abominable things, like eating pork, working on Saturday, and failing to cut their son's penis. But if that is supposed to excuse murder of women and children then this LORD should be brought to justice for what he himself calls Evil intent.------------------
"I was very unwilling to give up my belief." Charles Darwin

Okay,I'm ready now. Yaro: "Why does sin need to be atoned for? Why did God, pre-Christ, require a calf? What logic is there behind killing an animal to appease a diety? That's one question."Well, no that's three questions (just a little humor). Anyway, sin needs to be atoned for because if it weren't, we would all be doomed for Hell. God loves us and decided to reconcile our broken relationship with Him. On to the next question: I actually do not know why God required an animal to be sacrificed. I do know that not just any calf/lamb/etc. could be sacrificed. It had to be a "perfect calf" that was also very useful (in other words, you couldn't sacrifice a calf that was maimed or going to die anyway). So why did Christ need to DIE for our sins? Well, the blood of a perfect calf had to be shed (for whatever reason, I'll try to find the answer to this) to cleanse someone of their sins, so the blood of a perfect man had to be shed to cleanse EVERYONE for their sins (see the correlation?). So God couldn't wipe away our sins by just having a pizza. And if He did, how would that show that He loved us? Why would anyone show thanks to Him? The fact that He loved us enough to send His Son (and if you know anything about the Trinity, then send Himself), the only person actually worthy of Heaven, to be brutally killed, proves to me His love for us.Now, about judging our hearts: God does know what is in our hearts. An atheist does not believe in what Christ did for us, though, so what makes you think that in his heart, he does? Also, say a person has heard about Christ and truly understands what he did for us but still refuses to accept it. This person did not believe in what Christ did for us, so why should he be allowed into Heaven? God does understand our confusion, and has cut us some (a vast understatement) slack. We can screw up an infinite amount of times, but if we just believe in what He has done for us, we will be saved. God never abandoned us, He has always been there for us, and if you, no matter how horrible of a person you are, wanted to know Him intimately, you could ("you" in general).As for your personal case, Yaro: God does understand why you don't believe. However, your reasons for believing should be far greater than you reasons for not believing.Brian: God loves ALL of us. Christ died for ALL of us. But if one does not believe in Him and what he has done, then he will get what he deserves (Hell). God IS like the earthly mother in your analogy. We have turned our backs on him, "broken his heart a million times," and He will keep taking us back. However, if the earthly son just completely denied his mother's existence altogether, how could the mother take him back?Also, you can say God condemns His children to Hell for not believing in Christ, but I would say we condemn ourselves if we do not believe. He has given us the way out, the "free pass to Heaven," all we have to do is accept it. It is our fault if we do not.Finally (to everyone), I feel as if I am coming across as "preachy" (for lack of a better word). Let me assure you that you and I are no different (aside from beliefs). I still do some stupid, selfish things of which I am not proud. I am still a sinner, and I still need God's grace. I TRY to live in Christ's image, but I fail miserably. I believe that at least trying is better than not trying at all, though. Just wanted to clear this up.

Hello, I'm new to this forum, and I'm itching to get my two cents worth in. Drbill, In relation to your wonderful spout about god creating evil, smiting,using the sword,etc., I am in complete agreement! I believe who we are dealing with here is YHWH (Ancient Hebrew has no vowels). If you read Exodus 19 you may see what I mean. This chapter has the storm/volcano god YHWH fuming about killing his people if they don't obey his rules and stay off the mountain. In another place YHWH oblterates 20,000 people with fire from the mountain because they went up it and made a golden calf to worship. Well, I would be obliterated too if I climbed up Mt. Saint Helens just before it blew up( the golden calf is irrelevant)![This message has been edited by Prozacman, 09-04-2003][This message has been edited by Prozacman, 09-04-2003]

Hi, Why do we deserve Hell? As long as we stick to certain conditions of course, however a mother's love is unconditional, God doesn't come close. If the mother had the same powers as God has then she certainly would save her son, in fact, I believe she would save everyones' sons. You forget that at the end of time the child cannot just turn its back on God anymore, that child will be in front of Jesus as Jesus casts him into the pit for all eternity because that child of God finds it difficult to take some ancient myths seriously. I can say this because it is basic Christian theology. I didn't make it up, it's all part of the 'Good News'. I put this down more to God's inability to convince people of his existence than anything else. If people find it difficult to take God's Word seriously it is only because the Bible makes God 'a bad geographer, a bad chronologist, [and] a bad physicist. {Voltaire} Can you really blame people for not believing in the Bible, this isn't the middle ages, mankind has developed from these ignorant times, God is redundant. Ok, what exactly is it we have to accept? Do we have to accept that 6000 years ago a woman ate a fruit when she had no idea she was doing anything wrong and then God got a bit annoyed and cursed mankind forever. Then he repents, God realises that he made a mistake by punishing everyone so he gives us 'a free pass to heaven.' But to set up this free pass we NEED to torture and murder his son, then we need to believe that this guy rose from the dead three days later and if we believe that in our hearts we get into heaven.I am sorry but I cannot take this seriously at all. To me, it is so mindbogglingly absurd that I relegate it to the realms of fantasy. That's just me of course, you are entitiled to believe it if you want, you obviously see something in it that I don't, thats very cool with me.I have studied the Bible for quite a long time, and when you take a critical approach to it for a little while you will find just how unreliable the bible actually is. If I cannot trust the bible to be an accurate record of history or science how can I trust it about anything else?Brian.PS, sorry if I come across a bit strong here, it is nothing personal, just my honest opinion.

I believe you may be thinking of Exodus 32:27,28. Here, Moses, on orders from YHWH, commands the police:

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And he said to them, "Thus says the LORD God of Israel, 'Put every man his sword on his side, and go to and fro from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbor,'" And the sons of Levi did according to the word of Moses; and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men. And Moses said, "Today you have ordained yourselves for the service of the LORD, each one at the cost of his son and of his brother, that he may bestow a blessing upon you this day." Revised Standard Version

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"I was very unwilling to give up my belief." Charles Darwin

I believe you are right Doctbill, but don't forget, there a lot of other verses where god threatens his people with a hideous, morbid, terrifying death!

This is a difficult call. My first impulse is to agree but then I remember that virtually without exception these terrible things are uttered by YHWH. Now YHWH claims to be God, and people claim that he is God, but I cannot, off hand, recall a single instance where "God" (the creator) makes such statements. Are you aware that when God is spelled GOD (KJV, RSV), it is given for YHWH?This is a complicated and (at present) confusing issue which I have been working on for some time. Suffice it to say that I have had to revise my early impressions and have come to view, in a different light, what the Israeli commanders chanted on Mount Carmel: When I have perfected my arguments, I intend to devote a page to this issue on my website. Meanwhile, I would be happy to converse with you further on this question. My resources are at your disposal.db------------------
"I was very unwilling to give up my belief." Charles Darwin

Brian, We deserve Hell because we are sinful. We turned our backs on God. His Son died for us, though, so that we may receive what we DO NOT deserve, Heaven. We do not have to stick to certain conditions. If we ask God to take us back, he will. Just like a mother, though, he cannot take us back if we do not want to be taken back. I agree. But God created us to have free will, and saving someone against their will is not free will. I have not forgotten this. At the end of time, it will be impossible to deny the existence of Christ. By then, though, it is too late, and if one did not believe, then . . . I know. I did not mean God doesn't actually condemn us to Hell. I meant that he condemns us to Hell because of our own choices, so, in a sense, we condemn ourselves. I believe that God has made Himself overwhelmingly apparent in this world, if we just look for Him. God does not want to force people to believe in Him; He wants us to worship and praise Him out of our own free will. Also, there is no reason for faith if God just did anything He had to make us believe. I do not believe that in order to go to Heaven, you need to believe in the Adam and Eve story. You do, though, have to believe in Christ and what he did for us. It would make no sense for Christ to die for us if the Adam and Eve story weren't true, though. You are entitled to your own opinion, and I respect that. I respect everyone on here for trying to pursue the truth, no matter what they believe "the truth" might be. I agree wholeheartedly. If one cannot trust that a certain part of the Bible is accurate, then how can they trust that the rest of it (or even any of it) is true? I do trust that the Bible is accurate, though. That is why I do not understand how some people can say that the Flood or the Creation stories are just myths, but that Jesus was real, and everything written about him is accurate. Don't sweat it. I am sure that I come across strong to others at times.

Man, my computer screws up too much. Sorry about the double post.[This message has been edited by phil, 09-07-2003]

This whole argument sounds ridiculous if one is speaking of the creator of the universe; the god who made us as we are: inquisitive, exploratory, individual, and independent. If, on the other hand, one is speaking of a Lord god (supreme leader), say, the Son of David, King of Israel, then the whole thing is ultimately reasonable.The creator made sky-gods to circle the earth, shed light upon it, and mystify astrologers. The creator made earth creatures whose obvious purpose is to consume, copulate, and die. It is the gods of earth: Kings, Presidents, and Generals who make law, demand loyalty and kill their enemies. The creator has no enemies. The creator is unassailable.As a wannabe king, Jesus would, of course, have to demand loyalty. No one would be allowed into his kingdom unless he accept Him as Supreme Leader. There is no evidence that the creator-god requires anything of us save what we are compelled by nature to do: consume, copulate, and die. There is abundant evidence that the LORD god creates statutes, demands allegiance and doles out rewards and punishment. To suggest that the creator-god or the sky-gods possess human or inhumane attributes is nothing short of paganism. The alternative, creation of a political god is the natural and reasonable outcome of power politics.The idea that a man can actually be the incarnation of a sky-god is a concept whose time has come and gone. To imagine anyone as vicar of God (creator or sky-god) is not simply laughable; it is a very dangerous delusion.------------------
"I was very unwilling to give up my belief." Charles Darwin

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I know. I did not mean God doesn't actually condemn us to Hell. I meant that he condemns us to Hell because of our own choices, so, in a sense, we condemn ourselves.

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1) Stillborn babies.2) People who were born and died before Christ.3) People since Christ who have simply never heard of Christ.Did they condemn themselves?Additionally... God creates all life, right? And God knows ahead of time who will accept Jesus and who won't. So God creates a life, knowing full well that the life he is creating will suffer for all eternity. Does that sound like people condemning themselves to you?

Hello All,Seven years ago I 'accepted the Lord' in college, and since have met with 'fundamentalist' christians. After a few years, the zealotry began to fade and old questions I'd had starting becoming harder to ignore. Well, here I am, and dammit I want some answers! I've tried talking to the man upstairs, but he's not talking, so here goes...For starters, why the game? Is he really so bored that he needed to create a race of selfish super-monkeys to keep him company? Why create the illusion of atheistic evolution? Does he hate educated people? Why the change in behavior over the years? First he's loving, then he's vengeful and harsh(puberty maybe?), then he's nice again... Now he's not even talking. I don't have the reference, but there is a verse declaring that he wants all men to be saved. Obviously I'm missing something, because that doesn't jive with his omnipotence. Or is he constrained by something? If so, what?And why does he continue the game? His 2000+ year 'last days' are often cited as 'the patience of god' by christians. But since 'narrow is the way' leading to salvation, keeping up the game means that over 50% of the population is headed for neverending torment. It would seem to me that a loving god would have ended this a long time ago.But then again, he says 'my ways aren't your ways'. Yeah, he's got that right.-M

See my post #85. Meanwhile, consider a few points of note which I will not bother to substantiate at this time:But if one confuses the creator of the universe with this man who leads his troops into battle against "the wicked," - then there is going to be hell to pay {as many a dead soldier could attest. (if indeed dead soldiers care to protest)}. ------------------
"I was very unwilling to give up my belief." Charles Darwin

Yes, I am aware that YHWH is given for GOD. I think that everywhere we find a reference to "the LORD", we are also identifying YHWH, but there are references to "the Lord" with lower case letters, and I don't know if he is the same as "the LORD".I as well as you would like some clarification on this. I do know that when the author(s) of Genesis, Exodus, etc. use the word "God", as in, "In the beginning when God created..."(NRSV), the Hebrew word for God is "Elohim" which is a plural word form meaning "the Gods". However, see the notes to page 3 of Gen.1(NRSV), where the "us", and "our" of "Let us make mankind in our image", is interpreted as a heavenly court of divine beings. I was taught that the words us and our refer to the trinitarian godhead, but now I think these words are a clue to how seperate gods were worshipped and how thier attributes were combined over time into the single god YHWH, although I can't prove this at the moment. I believe more research is in order, and I would appreciate any input on the matter.

Was your post addressed to me? Sounds like it, but you actually replied to your own post! I am pressed for time at the moment but would love to share on this subject.Meanwhile, please be sure to click on the reply button in my post, not yours, if you wish to communicate with me. Otherwise I may never know that you have responded. I only discovered this post of yours by accident.Later then,db