What constitutes matters of Brotherhood and Fellowship?

Hi EMA,Im just wondering, you've mentioned the trinity issue a lot here, so is this thread about fellowship or the trinity?it seems to me that you are saying that person who does not believe in the trinity doctrine has no fellowship with Christ, is that correct?

Ok, well here are a few scriptural thoughts about what constitutes disfellowshiping I guess opinion will be divided on what constitutes 'traditions' and 'teachings' not from the apostles...however, considering the catholic encylopedia specifically states that the apostles did not teach the idea of the trinity, we should very well consider that it is likely one of the 'teachings' that was not recieved from the apostles. Im guessing you and jaywill may not agree on that point though.I just wanted to add that other traditions such as idols and images for use in worship was condemned in the NT, as was calling anyone on earth 'Father', the setting oneself up above the congregation, the putting on of special garb, having positions in the congregations that separated teachers from the rest of the congregations, having titles above others in the congregations, pagan practices such as easter and christmas and halloween, the baptizing of babies, the buring of candles and incense which constitute pagan practices...im sure there are more. Well let me start by saying that i do not view even myself as a member of the 'body of christ', and the majority of JWs' do not view themselves as such either.
Can all people be children of God, of course they can. Are all people children of God? That depends on their behavior as these scriptures show: Jesus explained what the conditions are to Nicodemus.
John 3:5 Most truly I say to you, Unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."Everyone can be saved...they will be saved thru their faith in Jesus and their obedience to Gods word and will. But i certainly cannot judge if a person is saved or not because that time of salvation has not yet arrived.Besides that, i cannot even state if I myself am saved because salvation comes right at the end as Jesus said
Matt 24:13 "he who has endured till the end is the one that will be saved"So really, now is not the time to be talking about who is saved because we just dont know who will be saved until they have actually been saved....that will happen at armageddon. Now is simply the time to bring ourselves in line for salvation by learning to live by Gods laws now and proving that you want to be a diciple of Jesus. actually do you mind if i start with the doctrinal issue first. I think if i do it will be alot clearer because I myself am NOT a member of the body of christ.Firstly, it seems that you view 'fellowship' only in terms of 'the body of christ'
However, there are two sets of fellowship according to the scriptures. The first pertains to those who are members of the 'body of christ' and the second pertains to those who are members of the 'other sheep'.Jesus said at John 10:10, 16 I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd. Doctrinally, both of these groups come under the same conditions and requirements to maintain in their fellowship with Christ...there is no difference in that regard. So being of the 'body of christ' does not mean you are more favored then the 'other sheep' . Both groups become children of God and obtain salvation. Both have a fellowship with Christ.The only difference is that the first group obtain a heavenly reward and will sit with Christ in his kingdom, while the 'other sheep' will be rewarded with eternal life in an earthly paradise and live under the governing rule of that kingdom.I hope this is clear. I have not watered down our beliefs. They are as i have stated. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.Edited by Peg, : No reason given.Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

this is a point of difference that Brother Russell made a note of in the August 1884 Watch Tower. He pointed out that the other sheep in Jesus parable at John 10:7-16 are ones who would have set before them the prospect of perfect life on earth. Psalm 37:11 speaks of them: "But the meek ones themselves will possess the EARTH,
And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace"They are not only gentile christians because if you take into consideration that Gods purpose is for all mankind to be saved...this includes people from all nations who had lived and died before Jesus ministry. This is shown in the scripture about the time of the resurrection. Jesus said at John 5:28-29 the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment. So 'those who practiced vile things' are people who were obviously not christians...they were not followers of Jesus...they were people who did not know God in both the past and right thru to our own time.Basically, the 'other sheep' are not those with a heaveny calling. This is borne out by Jesus words about the 'separating of the sheep from the goats' at Matthew 25:31-46 When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him...and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats..."One group is saved and look at the reason jesus gives in vs 34-40 As you can see, the sheep are a different group of people to christs brothers. His brothers are the ones who make up the 'body of Christ'....his annointed followers, the ones he made a covenant with on the night of his death as Luke 22:28-30 shows: You are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, that you may eat and drink at my table in my (heavenly) kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel. What do you think of Brother Russells idea about the 'other sheep'?

Well where did God put Adam and Eve? On Earth. If he wanted humans in heaven, he could have created them in heaven from the start.Gods purpose was for humans to live on earth, so why change that purpose just because the first 2 rebelled? The implication is that he always had a plan for people from the beginning of mankinds fall, God had planned to save them all (except Adam and Eve).He promised Abraham that by means of his 'seed' (the messiah) ALL NATIONS on earth would bless themselves. All nations include more then just the christians.I find it interesting how many christians view themselves as the chosen few who will attain salvation. The reality is that God is going to save everyone who has ever lived. This includes people from pre-christian times from all the nations of the earth. Let me start by saying that the saving of the 'other sheep' has been happening since the fall. People from earliest times such as Able were not christians nor were they jews...yet they are numbered among the 'great cloud of witnesses' in hebrews 11.I think i can save a lot of time here by clarifying one of our major understandings that not everyone is going to rule in heaven with Christ. So basically, anyone who is not going to heaven are 'other sheep'.We believe that, as revelation shows, only a small number will rule with christ (Christs Brothers) in heaven and a very large uncountable number will live forever on the earth as worshipers of God.So when Jesus spoke about his 'brothers' ruling with him in the heavenly kingdom, we understand that they have that heavenly hope. And when Jesus spoke about the 'other sheep' he meant all the rest of mankind who will be living in the earthly paradise under the guidance of Christ and his brothers. Well i think Paul was telling the gentile christians that they also now have the opportunity to be united with God and to become one of Christs 'brothers' and obtain a heavenly calling. Notice he tells them that formerly they were excluded because they were gentiles, but now they could be brought near.The 'other sheep' are still a very discernable group. And consider this, if people are only saved from the time of christ onward, what happens to faithful ones such as Abraham, Moses, Able, King David? They must obtain salvation somehow.

because the body of christ primarily refers to 'Christs Brothers'. The ones to whom Jesus made a covenant on the night of his death. If you consider that he had several hundered diciples before he died, yet he only made the covenant with his 12 chosen apostles at the last supper, it shows that not everyone is included in the covenant for a kingdom.However, the 'other sheep' are the reason for the covenant being made in the first place. So in actuality, the kingdom and the covenant with the apostles was put in place in order to gather the 'other sheep'Jesus gave the apostles the commission to gather people, to teach them and shepherd them. Those apostles were to impart knowledge and understanding and guidance to the other sheep. Someone has to direct the preaching and Jesus made the covenant with them to carry on his work of gathering the other sheep.And remember Jesus words to Peter at John 21:15-17 ? Simon son of John, do you love me? Peter answered: Yes, Lord, you know I have affection for you. Jesus said to him: Feed my lambs. ... Shepherd my little sheep. ... Feed my little sheep.So i guess im saying that the members of the 'body' of Christ are primarily these spirit annointed Apostles who Jesus gave the responsibility to gather the sheep.All other christians are united with Christ if they work alongside these ones and follow their direction. We are not actual members of that body though, but we more like honorary members of that body of Christ because we are in unity with them. because one group has to take the lead. And they will continue to do that in the heavenly kingdom as judges of the 12 tribes (the collective earthly population) No. People both inside and outside are other sheep. Basically anyone who is not spirit annointed are the 'other sheep'. I am one of the other sheep because i am not spirit annointed. some of us are members of that body and the majority of us are not members.
To give you an idea of how many of us are spirit annointed, at last years memorial celebration where 7million baptized witnesses attended, approx 10,000 members partook of the bread and wine thus indicating that they are Christs 'brothers'...the rest of use were observers only.This should give you an idea of how many JW's claim to be of the 'body of christ'... they are spirit annointed/born again christians...chosen to be such by God alone. exactly. My hope is to live forever on earth. I hope to be among the 'great crowd' of revelation...if i behave myself until that time lol. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

Of course they live here as well, they are human too, but when they die they will go to heaven. The rule hasnt changed, humans will continue to be born and live on earth as they always have done. if you look at vs 7-8 you'll see he's speaking about christians who recieve holy spirit only
7For God called us, not with allowance for uncleanness, but in connection with sanctification. 8So, then, the man that shows disregard is disregarding, not man, but God, who puts his holy spirit in YOUThose who are born again have recieved holy spirit and they are the ones that Jesus identified as entering the kingdom of God when he explained it to Nicodemus. The passage in Matthew is refering to the 'last days' and the people who live at that time. Any who remain defiant of God at that time will certainly not be saved and these are the ones who Jesus says will be cut off into everlasting destruction....but there are literally billions of people who have never had the opportunity to know God because they died before these last days.Those people are the ones who will be given another opportunity to come to know God and make an informed decision. They are the ones who will recieve a resurrection to life on earth again. "The hour is coming in which all those in memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgement"Thats right, his blood is for everyone...but that does not mean that everyone has to give up their life on earth to benefit from it.Paul also showed that there is a difference in the group of christs brothers and the rest of the world of mankind whom he calls 'the creation'. Notice in the following scripture that he specifically says that the creation is eagarly awaiting the revealing of the sons of God that they too may become children of God The apostles were Jesus chosen few who recieved Gods holy spirit. The total number of them according to revelation is 144,000 so no, its not only his 12 apostles. However, the number of chosen ones had to eventually amount to 144,00 so over the centuries there have always been chosen ones who would make up the 'bride' of christ. As a collective group they are the called the bride....but not all christians are part of this bride class. The memorial is celebrated every year on the date corresponding to Nisan 14...the anniversary of Christs death.The purpose is to commemorate his death, to remember the value of his sacrifice and what it achieved. During the evening we pass around the bread and wine, but only those who claim to be of the annointed will partake of those emblems and the rest of us are observers.We dont decide who partakes. The partakers make that decision themselves based on their annointing by holy spirit. I used to ask this question myself...how do they know they are annointed. One of the annointed told me that if you have to ask if you are annointed, then you are not annointed.Paul explains why this is the case in romans 8:16 The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children.So they have an overwhelming sense that they are going to heaven. There is no doubt in their mind that they have been chosen because God puts the desire into their heart and it becomes their driving force. Back in the first century, the gathering of the 'firstfruits' was the goal so of course Pauls words could be taken to mean all christians at that time. But 144,000 is a very small number relative to the number of actual christians so we do not take his words to apply to everyone...only to those who are 'joint heirs with Christ'. Absolutely. Its imperative that we get it right because if we deliberately mislead Jesus sheep, then we will be held accountable.

simply put, no.However, due to mankinds need for redemption, his plan was to establish a kingdom to guide people back into unity with himself. Part of that plan includes taking a small group of mankind to help govern the people of the earth thru that process. These ones are a fixed number though, so there is not a continual flow of humans into the heavenly kingdom. the scripture is directed to those who God has 'put his holy spirit into'We know that this is a small number of christians, therefore Pauls words in this instance are directed to them. i just explained what i meant when i said "Any who remain defiant of God at that time (last days) will certainly NOT be saved and these are the ones who Jesus says will be cut off into everlasting destruction"'Everyone' who has ever lived before this time will be saved thru the resurrection. They will be given an opportunity to decide based on accurate knowledge of God. provided you acknowledge that there are only a small number of these ones called 'christs brothers' for revelation puts their number at 144,000. That number is much smaller then all the christians in the world today.But with regard to those who are saved, i think we have a different idea of that. We dont view anyone as 'saved' until that time arrives and the person has actually been saved. Salvation hasnt happened yet becuause it doesnt happen until Armageddon arrives.After armageddon we will see who has actually been saved. You may recall Jesus words at Matt 7:22 Here Jesus is speaking about christians...those who were performing powerful works in his name. So this is why i say that we really dont know who will be saved until after armageddon. Being a baptized christian is NOT a guarantee of salvation. It puts us in line for salvation but it certainly doesnt guarantee it. lol its funny how you look at one verse and deny that its literal but then another and claim that it is literal.Let me put it to you this way. If these 144,000 are not a literal number but the 'virgins' are literal....then you must be saying that only those who are virgins will be with Christ in heaven.Tell me why you think a specific number is given in revelation? the fact that some are going to rule as kings and priests with christ does not mean that the church should be divided into two groups. Lets not forget Jesus words
"and i have other sheep i also must bring and they will become one flock one shepherd"Dont make the same mistake that churchs have made. They beleive there is a distinction of two classes among jesus sheep... but Jesus did not see them as two classes. They are ONE flock under ONE shepherd. the other sheep are also a part of the members of christ...they just are not going to heaven. Its really not that complicated. You still need to explain why there are so many teachings of Jesus about living on earth in paradise.Also, you have to be able to explain what will come of the earth if there are no people living here because they've all gone to heaven. Dont forget that the scriptures show that Armageddon will be Gods war to end wickedness and take over rulership of the earth....if there are no people down here, whats the point?

if individual baptized chirstians were practicing such things in the congregation they would be disfellowshiped, so no, i would not have fellowship with those baptized christians.However, there are instances where the congregation will continue to associate with such ones. In my situation my husband is not a christian, yet he and his family celebrate such occasions. As a wife i am obliged to attend such family occasions and this does not constitute a matter of disfellowship for me because my situation is different to a christian who chooses to celebrate such things. My elders know that I attend the christmas dinner, yet it is not a disfellowshipping offence in my circumstances.This is in harmony with the principle about a christian showing reasonablness as Paul advised at Philipians 4:5 "Let YOUR reasonableness become known to all men. The Lord is near."Basically the way Jw's view it is that in this situation my unbelieving mate is entitled to celebrate with his family and my attendence would be as an observer rather then a participant. It would also be wrong of me to demand that he stop soing something just because i dont do it. If it ever becomes his decision not to celebrate christmas then i will not be required to go to the family function anymore and i'll be a very happy lassy. yes of course we view them as christians. But there is a big difference between true christianity and false christianity. As soon as a christian begiins to deviate from what Christ commanded, they will be judged on those actions....not by any human of course, but by Jesus himself.Even Jesus said about some of his followers at Matt 7:21 "Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness.According to Jesus words, even though some christians 'believe' they have fellowship with Jesus, they really didnt. This is why its so important that we get it right now....later will be too late. Absolutely.
Remember that Jesus told christians that they must worship God in 'spirit and truth'If we know something is untrue, such as Jesus born on dec 25/christmas, and we continue to make that untruth a part of our worship, then we will be held accountable for that.We really do have to understand and make informed decisions now becuase pleading ignorance later will not help us according to Jesus words in Matt 7. His words show that those christians 'believed' that they were worshiping correctly...but Jesus showed that they were not found approved and therefore not saved. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

Thats very true. I wonder though if it is because many people simply dont know where some practices originate from. Do you find any account in the gospels of Jesus celebrating his birth? Or do you see any account in the bible, including the Hebrew scriptures, of any Jew celebrating their birthday?The answer to that question is no. The reason is because the only people who celebrated birthdays were pagan worshipers. The reason why they celebrated their birthday was because it was a religious ceremony and the purpose of it was to keep away evil spirits who were said to try and attack a person on the day of his birth. The cake, the candles, the presents and the party was a ceremony which kept those evil spirits away from the birthday celebrant.This is why the Jews never celebrated birthdays. They were not to participate in pagan practices or make pagan religious celebrations a part of their worship. So do you really think that Christ would have asked his followers to participate in that pagan practice?The Magi were in fact pagan astrologers and it wasnt christs birth they celebrated. They didnt see Jesus until jesus was an 'infant' probably around 2 yrs of age. Yes they gave Jesus gifts, but there was not actual celebration involved in that.Jesus told us to worship in 'spirit and truth' so yes, we should base our form of christianity on what we know to be true. We know that Jesus was not born on Dec 25, we know the bible does not state the date of his birth, we know that birthdays are pagan practices therefore to base our worship on 'truth' we would have to ensure that we do not adopt anything that we know to be untrue. this is true to some degree, but we also have to consider that our world has changed a hell of a lot since the bible was written and therefore there are going to be things in our world that are not directly mentioned in the bible. Sometimes we have to use 'principles' to make decisions about our worship and what is acceptable and what is not.One example would be blood transfusions. This is a huge point of contention for many people, i know. The bible specifically tells us that we must not 'eat' blood. But it doesnt say we must not 'inject' blood into our veins to save life. Jw's have taken the stand that we must not accept blood transfusions because the bibilical principle is that blood is considered sacred to God. It represents the individuals life...the life that God gave it. So we take that principle and apply it in our modern world. No, the bible doesnt say we must not use blood to save life, but the principle is that the life of the person from which the blood came belongs to God and we cannot rightly take that persons blood to use for any purpose because it belongs to God alone. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

there is no specific passage stating that you must not celebrate birthdays. But if that is the way you determine what is acceptable to God, then you are going about things the wrong way. There is also no passage stating you should not celebrate a mardigras or halloween....but its pretty clear from knowing what Gods standards are that these celebrations would not be acceptable to him.You first should be looking at the particular celebration, where it originates, what was its purpose, why was it celebrated and then ask if it is in harmony with Gods standards and would he accept it.So with regard to birthdays, did God accept the mingling of pagan religions amongst the isrealites? What was his stand on Pagan religions and false worship? Matt 2:1-11 2 After Jesus had been born in Beth′le‧hem of Ju‧de′a in the days of Herod the king, look! astrologers from eastern parts came to Jerusalem, 2saying: Where is the one born king of the Jews? For we saw his star [when we were] in the east, and we have come to do him obeisance. ...11And when they went into the house they saw the young child with Mary its mother, and, falling down, they did obeisance to it. They also opened their treasures and presented it with gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh. You cant seriously tell me this was a birthday celebration. Birthdays were accompanied by music, dance, cake, candles, wishes.... this was a simple visit by 3 men who gave some gifts to the one they believed would be the next king of Isreal.lol and you say i'm mincing my words. C'mon, dont tell me you've never recieved a gift from anyone apart from at your birthday? Now dont do that... we are talking about 'birthday celebrations'... not gift giving. There is nothing wrong with gift giving. Jesus said we should give freely and be generous with all. But an actual birthday celebration is not about giving...its about recieving AND its a pagan religious ceremony, even if people dont view it that way today. LOL am i pretending not to celebrate??? Ok now you are being funny.I never said they were 'evil' I said they were based on a lie. Jesus was not born on Dec 25, the early christians never celebrated it because they already had a yearly celebration called the 'memorial'Its about keeping ones way of life in harmony with God and truth. I attend only out of respect for my hubby. If i didnt, then it could cause problems between myself and his family because they want to see him and their grandchildren. I certainly dont go there to secretly celebrate christmas. They all know that i dont celebrate so they dont buy me gifts, i dont buy them gifts and the gifts they give to our children they dont wrap in christmas paper because they understand that i dont celebrate christmas. Paul was not talking about christmas or birthdays in this passage.
Do you understand what the slaughterhouses were about in Pauls day?
All the meat at the slaughterhouses was first sacrificed to idols...then it was sold at the markets.This was an issue for some christians and paul was explaining that they could eat of such meat purchased without it affecting their conscience because they were not the ones sacrificing to idols or participating in the ceremony.the prinicple is that there is a difference between 'participating' in a practice and simply eating a piece of food. Bringing it closer to our own day, turkey is a traditional christmas day roast. Could I eat a turkey that a shop sells because it is christmas? Of course I could. To me its just a turkey. Im not eating it because its christmas....this is what paul was getting at.I agree that halloween is very obviously a satanic celebration and christians should not participate in it. I can imagine that it must be a very difficult thing for you as a parent to tackle considering halloween is such a widespread celebration in america. Im not sure i'd compromise with my kids, to them its just an opportunity to get dressed up and have some fun but to me, knowing what the celebration is really about, i'd have to say no. Luckily we dont have halloween in australia as a celebration so i dont have to worry about it.

its completely your choice and you dont have to take the view that Jw's take on the matter. We take this view because birthdays were originally a pagan religious ceremony. I guess we could carry on the tradition and put a different spin on it, but the fact is that it wasnt something Jesus did and if we want to be his 'followers' we need to do things as he did them.The bible tells us to become 'imitators' of christ... are we imitating his way of life if we practice things that he did not practice? i dont participate.
We go there for dinner and there isnt much more too it. i dont know how you managed to agree with Pauls words in corinthians, but then once again go down this path.You do realise that Pauls words were saying the opposite to what you've just stated here? Eating a turkey is not a pagan practice if one is not eating it for the purpose of celebrating a pagan practice...thats the crux of pauls argument about eating things sacrificed to idols. LOL.
perhaps if i was decorating my house, singing carols and proclaiming the birth of christ you might have a point.

but Paul was speaking to jews who were once living by the mosaic law....laws that forbade the eating of certain meats, working on certain days etc. He is not talking about taking part in pagan practices.I dont know why you think the principles are unscriptural. We know that scriptually the christians did not take part in birthday celebrations...you can read it here The World Book Encyclopedia: The early Christians did not celebrate His [Christ’s] birth because they considered the celebration of anyone’s birth to be a pagan custom.Volume 3, page 416.Can you explain to me why you believe it is scriptural for a christian to participate in a pagan custom?

im finding it hard to understand how you come to that conclusion considering the same word 'ekklesian' is used in both verses. This greek word means 'assembly' not universal or local.I really cant see anywhere in the NT writings where a distinction is made between the congregations. They are 'one flock, one shephard' according to Jesus.

Birthday ceremonies are a product of false religion. False religion is strongly influenced by Satan...any form of religion that is not influenced by God is influenced by Satan and therefore birthdays are a product of Satanic influence. Im sorry if that sounds harsh, but its true. Do you think God would approve of anything originating with him?Paul spoke very bluntly about the celebrations of the nations when he said at
1Corintians 10:20No; but I say that the things which the nations sacrifice they sacrifice to demons, and not to God; and I do not want YOU to become sharers with the demonsPaul didnt believe that the things the nations did (including their birthday celebrations) was something that came from God, so he strongly denounced getting involved with such things. Even if you dont beleive you are participating in a pagan ceremony, the fact is that birthdays were originally a pagan ceremony and therefore were influenced by the demons and their false worship. he was speaking to both, my apologies. But still, the point is that he was speaking about the mosaic law and its regulations...not the false worship of the nations. He wasnt telling christians that they could start involving themselves in practices that God condemned.
His words in 1Cor above should echo that sentiment. i see what you are saying here, but i think you are confusing the two issues.On one hand the christians were worried about eating meat that had earlier been used in some pagan ceremony....on the other, you are talking about pagan ceremoniesyou seem to be saying that its ok to participate in pagan ceremonies if you are not participating for the pupose of worship. To me that is not what Paul is talking about.The NT is very clear when it says that christians are to avoide false religious practices. But what Paul is talking about are things to do with the mosaic law, the eating of certain meat....hes not talking about participating in cremonies. Nowhere does he say that is acceptable for christians.

i just want to clarify what you mean when you say 'church'are you talking about the building or the people?