Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,904 Year: 4,161/9,624 Month: 1,032/974 Week: 359/286 Day: 2/13 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Air Force Academy creates worship area for Pagans, Druids, and Wiccans
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 27 of 244 (556549)
04-20-2010 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Faith
04-20-2010 2:17 AM


The Constitution is OLD
The idea that the first amendment was ever meant to give space to anything OTHER than the Christian religion in this nation is something you and I are going to disagree on.
The original constitution also only allowed white males to vote, allowed human beings to be owned as property, had Senators be appointed rather than elected, didn't extend federal law to the states, allowed alcohol to be sold in the US, disallowed alcohol to be sold in the US, let presidents be elected perpetually.
Even IF you are right, what does that have anything to do with regards to what we should do NOW as a country to promote religious freedoms? Should we rewrite that part of the 1st ammendment to be more specific to our current values? Or should we just recognize that the vast majority of our population believes in religious freedom above and beyond varieties of Christianity and interpret what is already a pretty broad wording of the 1st ammendment accordingly?

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Faith, posted 04-20-2010 2:17 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Faith, posted 04-20-2010 11:08 AM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 34 of 244 (556560)
04-20-2010 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Faith
04-20-2010 11:08 AM


Re: The Constitution is OLD
So to answer my question, you believe that in order for the Constitution to reflect the current popular understanding of religious freedom we need to change the 1st ammendment to be more specific?
I am being quite serious with this so please answer.
The line of reasoning is that if you say that we would need to change it, it is an admission that we already take into account influences other than the Constitution itself, namely some sense of the founders original intent which is obscure and debatable. It would be an admission that the founders failed to adequatly express their intent in the writing of the Constitution.
Then why should we choose one particular interpretation of founder intent, distorted by history, over our modern understanding of what religious freedom means?
Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Faith, posted 04-20-2010 11:08 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Faith, posted 04-20-2010 11:37 AM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 38 of 244 (556567)
04-20-2010 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Faith
04-20-2010 11:37 AM


Re: The Constitution is OLD
I am not trying to be combative but can you answer my question? I'll rephrase, do you believe it should require a Constitutional ammendment to allow what has occurred in the OP?

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Faith, posted 04-20-2010 11:37 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Faith, posted 04-20-2010 11:44 AM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 48 of 244 (556587)
04-20-2010 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Faith
04-20-2010 11:44 AM


Re: The Constitution is OLD
I am not trying to be combative but can you answer my question? I'll rephrase, do you believe it should require a
Constitutional ammendment to allow what has occurred in the OP?
I haven't thought it through, but it sounds like a good idea to me considering the way things have gone so I'll say yes.
Perfect. If you don't mind, I have a follow-up question. Pretend for a moment that you agree with the concept of religious freedom as expressed in the OP and that you are writing an ammendment to the Constitution to make the changes that you feel are necessary. What would the wording of the New 1st Ammendment be in order to allow for the behavior that the AFA took?
I am not asking that you advocate for it, but what would someone have to change the 1st Ammendment to allow for "universal" religious freedom?
Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Faith, posted 04-20-2010 11:44 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Faith, posted 04-20-2010 2:29 PM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 52 of 244 (556629)
04-20-2010 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Faith
04-20-2010 2:29 PM


"New" First Ammendment
Thank you for the time you took on this.
I think what I had hoped would be the rest of something revealing of what you feel is actually "deficient" (again presuming that you are an advocate for universal freedom of religion) in the current language of the 1st Ammendment.
What you did post is a good description of how you currently interpret the 1st but most of the other Ammendments are dense, concise fundamental principles of our freedoms.
Let me give it a shot and see what you think.
Here is the original for reference.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
Congress shall make no law favoring any religion over another or restricting the free exercise of any religion with the sole exception to practices that are in volation of other rights in this Constitution.
I don't like making a blanket exception for hard to define things such as "peace/wellbeing" as noble as those things are. All that would do would make a loophole where congress could pass laws that make ringing a church bell, knocking on nighbors doors to witness, etc illegal and have it be upheld as Constitutional under that caveat. I was trying to appeal to your language though so I tweaked it to try to get at what I think your goal is which is to be able to constitutionally restrict crazy things such as voluntary human sacrafice, etc.
As for your 2nd longer version, I would wager that if we asked every single one of your detractors in this thread or elsewhere if they would support such a thing you would find exactly ZERO. I realize that some of it is probably intentional hyperbole, but in all seriousness, nobody really wants that world.
Lets find out. Anyone else in this thread, do you support in any way the 2nd version of Faith's proposed ammendment?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Faith, posted 04-20-2010 2:29 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 04-20-2010 9:23 PM Jazzns has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024