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Author Topic:   Air Force Academy creates worship area for Pagans, Druids, and Wiccans
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 2884 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 151 of 244 (556967)
04-21-2010 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by Faith
04-21-2010 11:26 PM


Re: Such as?
Faith writes:

Well, but you do need the Christian version of religious freedom for the kind of religious freedom that we have. What they have is not the same freedom of religion, it's simply one pagan god honoring another, but not the true God. But the true God respects His human creation and their choices and honors them despite their religions.

I don't believe in pagan gods, and presumably, neither do you. Laws are not about pagan gods doing anything, laws are for people. Our constitution requires that people allow each other the right to religious freedom. The constitution does not talk about what God does, or which is the true god. Not even the American constitution does that.

Faith writes:

Surely the will of Caesar counts in the place of a Constitution as far as Roman law goes. The Caesars would quite happily have tolerated all religions but not one that refused to worship Caesar.

Then it's not freedom of religion. Why'd you bring up the Romans now again?

Faith writes:

Well, Indian law isn't doing anything to stop it. And don't be misled, it's a religious motivation behind it, not nationalism though they mix the two. And it's other INDIANS they are persecuting.

It is religiously motivated. That doesn't make it legal under Indian law. Can you show me some sources about Indian law enforcement keeping a blind eye toward the persecution of Christians?

Faith writes:

And the KKK is outlawed and subject to legal action against their criminal behavior.

Precisely. Just like religious persecution in India. So why is religion more free here?

Faith writes:

All pagan religions have a lot in common with each other.

Religions generally have a lot in common with each other, period.

Respectfully,

-Meldinoor

Edited by Meldinoor, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Faith, posted 04-21-2010 11:26 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Faith, posted 04-22-2010 12:16 AM Meldinoor has not yet responded
 Message 161 by Faith, posted 04-22-2010 1:39 AM Meldinoor has not yet responded

    
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 152 of 244 (556969)
04-21-2010 11:44 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Meldinoor
04-21-2010 11:22 PM


Re: Such as?
Faith writes:
Yes, a perfect statement of the pagan version of freedom of religion

King Piyadasi (Ashok) dear to the Gods, honours all sects, the ascetics (hermits) or those who dwell at home, he honours them with charity and in other ways. But the King, dear to the Gods, attributes less importance to this charity and these honours than to the vow of seeing the reign of virtues, which constitutes the essential part of them. For all these virtues there is a common source, modesty of speech. That is to say, One must not exalt oneís creed discrediting all others, nor must one degrade these others Without legitimate reasons. One must, on the contrary, render to other creeds the honour befitting them.

It seems to me that what the king wants is a religious and moral people, just like our founding fathers. Charity toward any religion is less important than the reign of virtue.

Yes, but in exalting virtue he is explicitly denying the right to exalt one's creed above others and requiring rendering honor to other creeds. This can only be done among followers of equal gods, but Christians do have the "arrogance" to believe we are following THE one and only God above them all, and we cannot say or do anything to imply otherwise. That always eventually puts us under persecution wherever the pagan gods are exalted.

I think you're reading it wrong. You think by "honouring" one was required to worship all religions. But from the context, it seems obvious that what they're really talking about is being virtuous, and not to be disrespectful to people of other faiths.

Don't think so. "One must not exalt oneís creed discrediting all others, nor must one degrade these others Without legitimate reasons. One must, on the contrary, render to other creeds the honour befitting them .

The creeds, not the believers in them. Soon as a Christian dares to suggest to a follower of another creed that Jesus Christ offers him forgiveness of sin through His death on the cross, and eternal life in the presence of God, end of "religious freedom" for Christians because that's exalting one's own creed and dishonoring the other creeds.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Meldinoor, posted 04-21-2010 11:22 PM Meldinoor has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Meldinoor, posted 04-21-2010 11:50 PM Faith has responded
 Message 169 by Jaderis, posted 04-22-2010 4:52 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 2884 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 153 of 244 (556970)
04-21-2010 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Faith
04-21-2010 11:44 PM


Re: Such as?
Faith writes:

Soon as a Christian dares to suggest to a follower of another creed that Jesus Christ offers him forgiveness of sin through His death on the cross, and eternal life in the presence of God, end of "religious freedom" for Christians because that's exalting one's own creed and dishonoring the other creeds.

How have I dishonored someone else's creed by telling them what I believe? Do you feel disrespected when someone tells you what they believe? Do you feel that your beliefs are belittled whenever a Jehova's Witness knocks on your door?

I don't think Indian law prohibits Christians from evangelising, but if you have a source for this claim I'd be happy to look at it.

Respectfully,

-Meldinoor


This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Faith, posted 04-21-2010 11:44 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Faith, posted 04-22-2010 12:21 AM Meldinoor has not yet responded
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Faith
Inactive Member


Message 154 of 244 (556973)
04-22-2010 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by Meldinoor
04-21-2010 11:36 PM


Re: Such as?
It is religiously motivated. That doesn't make it legal under Indian law. Can you show me some sources about Indian law enforcement keeping a blind eye toward the persecution of Christians?

Apparently it's mostly that the persecutions are so out of control that the government can't do much about them.

http://www.gfa.org/...police-to-orissa-to-protect-christians

But the Christians aren't getting much protection whatever the reason. The brutality is incredible. Beating, hitting with sticks, kicking in the face and body until they die. Stripping the clothes off the women and chasing them naked through the streets, kicking them in the genitals. I got some pictures of thse things from a little church in india.

Sometimes when the police do intervene it's on the side of the Hindus:

http://persecution.in/

The radicals then called Halebidu Police Station and immediately S.I. Kempesh came to the spot and Guru and Puttuswamy were taken to the Police Station. FIR has been filed against them under section 107. They were detained in custody till 11.00 pm and were released after taking a written statement from them. Enquiry is still in the process. This incident has been covered by the local media and news reporter.

And in the state of Orissa where all this is going on there are laws against the Christians:

http://www.gfa.org/countryprofiles/orissa/

Orissa has one of the worst records for violence against Christians, due in part to the activities of a religious fundamentalist group. Many churches have been destroyed and Christian workers continue to be attacked. There is a law prohibiting conversion and, since 2000, baptism requires the permission of the government. Despite all of this, the Body of Christ in Orissa continues to flourish. A new Oriya Bible was published in 1998.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Meldinoor, posted 04-21-2010 11:36 PM Meldinoor has not yet responded

  
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 155 of 244 (556975)
04-22-2010 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Meldinoor
04-21-2010 11:50 PM


Re: Such as?
How have I dishonored someone else's creed by telling them what I believe? Do you feel disrespected when someone tells you what they believe? Do you feel that your beliefs are belittled whenever a Jehova's Witness knocks on your door?

No, of course not, but historically Christians do get persecuted for doing this and it is illegal in many countries. They are certainly persecuted in strict Muslim countries, and were outlawed in the Soviet Union, in Ceaucescu's Rumania and in Mao's China. I get information about persecutions all over the world, including the jailing of Christians for evangelizing or just being pastors of churches, but I'm ashamed to say I haven't been following them enough lately. Good reminder to start reading up on it all again.

Do you not know about this very common experience of Christians?

I've listened to the testimony of Rumanian pastor Tson who was interrogated periodically by the police and beaten for his Christian teaching, whose hard-won library was destroyed by them on one visit to his home. I read the book by Richard Wurmbrand, Tortured for Christ, also in Rumania, who was imprisoned for fourteen years for his faith, in a tiny dark undeground cell. Watchman Nee, a Chinese pastor whose writings I love spent the last twenty years of his life in prison for his faith. There's also the book The Persecutor by a young Russian whose name I've forgotten who was a member of the KGB assigned to beat up Christians meeting secretly in each other's houses. Oh, Sergei Kourdakov, just came to me. He then became a believer based on a tiny bit of the Bible he happened to read which was enough to show him that his government was lying about what the Christians believe. He plotted for a long time how to get to Canada and finally was able to swim ashore off a Russian ship and found Christians there to teach him. The KGB caught up with him and killed him only a couple years later.

I don't think Indian law prohibits Christians from evangelising, but if you have a source for this claim I'd be happy to look at it.

Just happened to post one below -- correction, above.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Faith
Inactive Member


Message 156 of 244 (556977)
04-22-2010 1:06 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Meldinoor
04-21-2010 11:50 PM


Re: Such as?
Found some more about the laws against Christian evangelizing in India, but they are put in terms of "force, fraud or allurement" which means the charges, which are apparently numerous, are trumped up.

In the past, persecution was confined to specific regions of India. It has now spread nearly everywhere, as radical Hindus seek to purify India of all religions except Hinduism. Seven Indian states have anti-conversion laws in place. These laws impose prison terms and hefty fines on anyone who converts Indians by force, fraud or allurement.

VOMís legal network stays busy fighting false arrests and accusations against Christians by radical Hindus. In late August and early September 2008, the worst anti-Christian violence since Indiaís independence occurred. Hindu militants burned homes, churches and belongings in Kandhamal, Orissa state, and outlying areas. More than 100 people were killed, and about 70,000 people were left homeless or in refugee camps. One year after the attacks, more than 50,000 people who fled to forests or took shelter in refugee camps have not returned home out of fear of the Hindu nationalist extremists. Only 24 people have been convicted for participating in the attacks ó 95 have been acquitted.

On March 24, the Jesus Prayer House church building in the village of Kuruvakalva, Andhra Pradesh, was burned by Hindu extremists. Bibles, hymnals and furniture, as well as the roof the church, were destroyed.

On April 5, Pastor Yadal was attacked in the village of Vadarpalaya, Karnataka. Police officers stopped Pastor Yadal while he was on his way to preach at the House of Salvation church. An officer beat the pastor and accused him of forcibly converting Hindus.

Hindu extremists then called two local pastors to the scene and warned them to stop holding church services. The extremists also went to two other churches in the same village and warned them against gathering for worship.

http://www.persecution.com/public/restrictednations.aspx?...

Edited by Faith, : to add link


This message is a reply to:
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Faith
Inactive Member


Message 157 of 244 (556980)
04-22-2010 1:19 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by Rahvin
04-21-2010 6:28 PM


Re: How America is/was Christian and how it is not
Columbus's motives were entirely Christian, basically to convert the world to Christ wherever he found anyone in need of conversion. Yes he was looking for a route to India but he understood that God led him to the New World instead.

http://www.shalomjerusalem.com/heritage/heritage2.html


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Faith
Inactive Member


Message 158 of 244 (556981)
04-22-2010 1:25 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by Coyote
04-21-2010 9:48 PM


Re: Freedom of religion
Various clips from Wiki:
The Enlightenment is held to be the source of critical ideas, such as the centrality of freedom, democracy, and reason as primary values of society. This view argues that the establishment of a contractual basis of rights would lead to the market mechanism and capitalism, the scientific method, religious tolerance, and the organization of states into self-governing republics through democratic means. ...

Dorinda Outram provides a good example of a standard, intellectual definition of the Enlightenment:

Enlightenment was a desire for human affairs to be guided by rationality rather than by faith, superstition, or revelation; a belief in the power of human reason to change society and liberate the individual from the restraints of custom or arbitrary authority; all backed up by a world view increasingly validated by science rather than by religion or tradition.
It would seem that you are more comfortable with pre-Enlightenment thought.

How do you feel about a theocracy (with your guys in charge, of course)?

One thing I would never -- or almost ever -- trust Wikipedia with is anything having to do with Christianity.

America was not founded on Enlightenment principles in the sense you think it was, but Christian principles (which are timeless and not "pre-Enlightenment.")

Theocracy is impossible in a fallen world unless you're ancient Israel and America isn't.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Coyote, posted 04-21-2010 9:48 PM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by Coyote, posted 04-22-2010 1:30 AM Faith has responded
 Message 165 by bluescat48, posted 04-22-2010 2:19 AM Faith has responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 181 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 159 of 244 (556982)
04-22-2010 1:30 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by Faith
04-22-2010 1:25 AM


Re: Freedom of religion
Theocracy is impossible in a fallen world unless you're ancient Israel and America isn't.

Fallen world?

Sorry, you've gone off the deep end there. No such thing.

That is a religious myth, and does not reflect reality in any way.

You may believe it, but that doesn't make it so.

And no, theocracy is not impossible. There are a lot of folks in this country who would like to impose a theocracy--it they could. They would be in charge of course.

I can point you to some links if you like (tomorrow).


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Faith, posted 04-22-2010 1:25 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1805
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 160 of 244 (556983)
04-22-2010 1:34 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by Faith
04-21-2010 11:26 PM


Re: Such as?
And the KKK is outlawed and subject to legal action against their criminal behavior.

The KKK isn't outlawed. They've commited illegal actions in the past and probably still do, but actual membership in the group isn't illegal.


It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor
This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Faith, posted 04-21-2010 11:26 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith
Inactive Member


Message 161 of 244 (556984)
04-22-2010 1:39 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by Meldinoor
04-21-2010 11:36 PM


Re: Such as?
Well, but you do need the Christian version of religious freedom for the kind of religious freedom that we have. What they have is not the same freedom of religion, it's simply one pagan god honoring another, but not the true God. But the true God respects His human creation and their choices and honors them despite their religions.

I don't believe in pagan gods, and presumably, neither do you.

Actually I do. I believe they are real spiritual beings.

Laws are not about pagan gods doing anything, laws are for people. Our constitution requires that people allow each other the right to religious freedom. The constitution does not talk about what God does, or which is the true god. Not even the American constitution does that.

I'm talking about the meaning of the law of freedom of religion, simply saying that it's not about honoring other religions as the quote you gave showed that religion requiring, it's about toleration of different beliefs.

Faith writes:
Surely the will of Caesar counts in the place of a Constitution as far as Roman law goes. The Caesars would quite happily have tolerated all religions but not one that refused to worship Caesar.

Then it's not freedom of religion. Why'd you bring up the Romans now again?

Answering what you said about how they didn't have a Constitution outlawing the Christian religion. And yes it's not freedom of religion but it IS what passes for freedom of religion in pagan societies, that was the point.

Faith writes:
And the KKK is outlawed and subject to legal action against their criminal behavior.

Precisely. Just like religious persecution in India. So why is religion more free here?

???? Not getting your point, sorry.

Faith writes:
All pagan religions have a lot in common with each other.

Religions generally have a lot in common with each other, period.

Christianity is unique. ONLY the Biblical God became a man to die as a sacrifice for the sins of His people. (Yes I know there are some ridiculous pagan imitations, but none of them come close to the reality of Christ).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Meldinoor, posted 04-21-2010 11:36 PM Meldinoor has not yet responded

  
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 162 of 244 (556985)
04-22-2010 1:40 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by DrJones*
04-22-2010 1:34 AM


Re: Such as?
OK my mistake, I thought they were outlawed.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by DrJones*, posted 04-22-2010 1:34 AM DrJones* has not yet responded

  
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 163 of 244 (556986)
04-22-2010 1:41 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by Coyote
04-22-2010 1:30 AM


Re: Freedom of religion
You wanted MY opinion about theocracy. My opinion is:

Theocracy is impossible in a fallen world unless you're ancient Israel and America isn't.

What YOU think is another subject.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Coyote, posted 04-22-2010 1:30 AM Coyote has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2265 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 164 of 244 (556990)
04-22-2010 2:12 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by Faith
04-21-2010 11:34 PM


Re: Such as?
Don't confuse evangelism with the law guaranteeing religious freedom. You have every right to your beliefs but we may also tell you why your beliefs are wrong.

That would be fine if that was as far as it went. If I say I disagree then drop it don't push the issue. My beliefs aren't wrong, if they were I wouldn't have them. Just because you feel that your beliefs aren't wrong doesn't make it so. You think your beliefs are correct, I think mine are correct so drop the issue, but most of those trying to "evangelize" won't drop the issue when I say I don't agree.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Faith, posted 04-21-2010 11:34 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2265 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 165 of 244 (556992)
04-22-2010 2:19 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by Faith
04-22-2010 1:25 AM


Re: Freedom of religion
Theocracy is impossible in a fallen world unless you're ancient Israel and America isn't

Well it appears that people like Palin, Huckabee, Dobson, Beck and Limbaugh would welcome a theocracy so thay could force their rightwing fascist christian values on the rest of us.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Faith, posted 04-22-2010 1:25 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by Faith, posted 04-22-2010 2:27 AM bluescat48 has responded

    
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