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Author Topic:   Not enough room in DNA
Wounded King
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Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 55 of 139 (555941)
04-16-2010 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Calibrated Thinker
04-16-2010 10:33 AM


Looking in all the wrong places
Taking this thread back to the nuts and bolts, and since we are talking about DNA, it is very interesting that the defenders of evolution have yet to satisfactorily explain how information losses in the genetic code as brought about via copying errors/mutations can bring about more complex organisms with more information, no matter how much time you wish to throw at it.
I'm not sure why that is surprising when that isn't what the thread is about. Maybe you should have been looking at a thread where that issue would have been on topic instead, why not try Adding information to the genome., Evolving New Information, Irreducible Complexity, Information Loss and Barry Hall's experiments, Devolution (from The Fall) and "No New Information" or Information Changes in DNA by logical Analysis. Those are just ones with 'information' in the thread title, the issue has been raised in at least a dozen other threads.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Calibrated Thinker, posted 04-16-2010 10:33 AM Calibrated Thinker has replied

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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 59 of 139 (555950)
04-16-2010 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Dr Adequate
04-16-2010 1:03 PM


Re: Prankster God
Perhaps you could tell us what you're talking about. This would require some sort of link to a reputable source, not just your vague memory of something you think you read about somewhere which turns out to be about bacteria.
There are examples of this sort of thing in mammalian genomes to some extent with dual coding genes with overlapping splice variants (Kovacs et al., 2010) but I'm not sure about the 'entirely different biological features' element. Indeed the latest thing in ID seems to be to try and spin the findings of the ENCODE project to claim the whole genome is functional .
TTFN,
WK

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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 71 of 139 (556154)
04-17-2010 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Calibrated Thinker
04-17-2010 9:57 AM


Re: Creationist websites
You have no doubt heard of the ENCODE Project that was initially conducted a few years ago.
A good as any summary of some key initial findings of that project can be found at:-
Astonishing DNA complexity update - creation.com
Or you could instead read the paper from the ENCODE project themselves that I referenced in Message 59, where I also showed my usual fantastic prescience.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Calibrated Thinker, posted 04-17-2010 9:57 AM Calibrated Thinker has replied

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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 101 of 139 (556804)
04-21-2010 5:44 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Kaichos Man
04-21-2010 5:28 AM


Re: Refuting William Paley for the umpteenth time
Oh dear. Time to remind ourselves of the probabilities of the self-assembly of a single, simple living cell
Why would we remind ourselves of anything so supremely irrelevant which only occurs in the fantasies of creationists? I'm sure we could extend the gravel and bark examples down to the levels of atomic bonds and Van der Waals forces and generate lots of really big numbers for their improbability, but they wouldn't be any more meaningful than Meyer's mathematical jiggerypokery.
Hoyle's tornado in a junkyard was a ridiculous argument when he first made it and it still is today, no one has ever ascribed to the straw man theory of spontaneous random assembly of a cell that it counters.
TTFN,
WK

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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 107 of 139 (557005)
04-22-2010 4:53 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by slevesque
04-22-2010 4:15 AM


Re: Evidence & Interpretation
I'm not sure what you are objecting to, that Darwin was training for the clergy is a matter of historical record, its not as if there are no biographical accounts of Darwin out there. Indeed Darwin's own autobiography is available online.
Darwin writes:
AFTER HAVING spent two sessions in Edinburgh, my father perceived or he heard from my sisters, that I did not like the thought of being a physician, so he proposed that I should become a clergyman. He was very properly vehement against my turning an idle sporting man, which then seemed my probable destination. I asked for some time to consider, as from what little I had heard and thought on the subject I had scruples about declaring my belief in all the dogmas of the Church of England; though otherwise I liked the thought of being a country clergyman. Accordingly I read with care Pearson on the Creed and a few other books on divinity; and as I did not then in the least doubt the strict and literal truth of every word in the Bible, I soon persuaded myself that our Creed must be fully accepted. It never struck me how illogical it was to say that I believed in what I could not understand and what is in fact unintelligible. I might have said with entire truth that I had no wish to dispute any dogma; but I never was such a fool as to feel and say 'credo quia incredibile'.
Considering how fiercely I have been attacked by the orthodox it seems ludicrous that I once intended to be a clergyman. Nor was this intention and my father's wish ever formally given up, but died a natural death when on leaving Cambridge I joined the Beagle as Naturalist.
...
In order to pass the B.A. examination, it was, also, necessary to get up Paley's Evidences of Christianity, and his Moral Philosophy. This was done in a thorough manner, and I am convinced that I could have written out the whole of the Evidences with perfect correctness, but not of course in the clear language of Paley. The logic of this book and as I may add of his Natural Theology gave me as much delight as did Euclid. The careful study of these works, without attempting to learn any part by rote, was the only part of the Academical Course which, as I then felt and as I still believe, was of the least use to me in the education of my mind. I did not at that time trouble myself about Paley's premises; and taking these on trust I was charmed and convinced by the long line of argumentation. By answering well the examination questions in Paley, by doing Euclid well, and by not failing miserably in Classics, I gained a good place among the οἱ πολλοί, or crowd of men who do not go in for honours.
TTFN,
WK

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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 139 of 139 (559943)
05-12-2010 5:26 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by dennis780
05-11-2010 10:34 PM


Re: Code
None of the above described has anything to do with environment.
That is only true because you left out the earlier step of how the cell knows that 'specific information is required'. This is often the result of signaling cascades initiated from the extracellular environment and can be affected by the larger environment of the organism.
Environmental effects are less obvious in humans because the womb is a very protective environment. In other organisms there are many clear examples of the effect of environmental factors, such as temperature effects on the sex of reptiles and the high sensitivity of amphibian development to salt and pH levels as well as water pollutants.
But DNA is the one and only source of genetic information.
This is obviously true because in terms of modern biology it is a tautology, what isn't true is that DNA is the only source of developmental information.
The other confounding factor is that in most larger organisms development is a highly stochastic process dependent on dynamic levels of proteins, especially those involved in signaling and transcription factors. So even with identical genetics and environment you can get a different phenotype in many instances just through chance variations during the developmental process.
I would say DNA is 99% responsible for any organisms physical state
I don't disagree with your general point about the importance of genetics but I think your 99% value is too high. Except in very controlled experimental situations the actual proportions of such things are very hard to measure.
TTFN,
WK
P.S. Just to be picky, if you are talking about mRNA then the bases are adenine, guanine, cytosine and uracil.

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