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Author Topic:   Creation as presented in Genesis chapters 1 and 2
Peg
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 228 of 607 (562681)
05-31-2010 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by ICANT
05-31-2010 11:40 AM


Re: Do you care to Debate the Affirmed?
ICANT writes:
The man in Genesis 2:7 which was formed from the dust of the ground before any other life forms of any kind can be the same mankind created in Genesis 1:27 which was created in the image of God male and female after all other living life forms was created from no stated material.
its not in chronological order...its that simple.
The first account is in chronological order, the 2nd is not.
ICANT writes:
Then why does it have the creation from the ground of all plant life?
Why does it have the forming of all creatures and fowl from the ground?
If it is about mankind specifically.
because the writer is explaining how God bought the animals to the man to name....and how he planted a garden (full of plantlife) for the man to cultivate.
So its specifically about how the animals and plants related to the man and how the man was given dominion over them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by ICANT, posted 05-31-2010 11:40 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by ICANT, posted 05-31-2010 9:19 PM Peg has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 230 of 607 (562683)
05-31-2010 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by ICANT
05-31-2010 12:39 PM


Re: Comparison of Gen 1 & 2
ICANT writes:
Are you saying they are two completely different stories as I have claimed and affirmed in this thread?
It sure sounds like it to me from the quote above.
yes they are completely different, but not in the way you think.
As i've said, one is a chronological account of all created things, the other is specific information about mankind.
ICANT writes:
The story in chapter 1 does not end until what is labled Genesis 2:3. But Moses did not put those divisions in the Bible.
exactly. This is why the whole lot should be read as one account....the way moses wrote it.
And this is also why its possible that the end of the chronological account of creation could have concluded in Gen 2:4 rather then the end of chpt 1.
Gen 2:5 could very well be the beginning of the detailed story of man.
This is why you cant be so dogmatic about it....its not 100% clear due to the way the book has been broken up by the translators.
ICANT writes:
But there is no new creative period.
but isnt that YOUR argument...that there were two creations? One of the first lot of humans, and then the man created in chpt 2 was a new creation. So why is there not a new creative day mentioned?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by ICANT, posted 05-31-2010 12:39 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by ICANT, posted 05-31-2010 9:47 PM Peg has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 231 of 607 (562684)
05-31-2010 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by purpledawn
05-31-2010 5:19 PM


Re: Comparison of Gen 1 & 2
purpledawn writes:
There was no evening and morning in the story from Genesis 2:4-4:25. There was only the day the Lord God created the heaven and the earth.
Seriously? Evening and morning aren't mentioned in the A&E story, but we can't assume that time didn't pass normally in the story.
if you agree that there are two creation stories being spoken of, then that is exactly what you'd have to assume.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by purpledawn, posted 05-31-2010 5:19 PM purpledawn has not replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 234 of 607 (562690)
05-31-2010 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by ICANT
05-31-2010 9:19 PM


Re: Do you care to Debate the Affirmed?
ICANT writes:
If it is not two chronological order's of two different stories how do you decide which is the correct chronological order?
the account in chpt 2 is very OBVIOUSLY not in chronological order.
Man is created before the animals and plants??? do you think thats even possible? What did he eat while waiting for the plants to grow???
ICANT writes:
Where does the writer say that or even hint that?
Gen 2:19-20 says the man was naming all the animals that God bought to him. If the man was created before all other creatures, how is it that Adam could was given the task of naming the animals? Obviously they did exist, right?
Of course this is based on the text. What else could it be based on?
Gen 2:19 "Now Jehovah God was forming from the ground every wild beast of the field and every flying creature of the heavens, and he began bringing them to the man to see what he would call each one; and whatever the man would call it, each living soul, that was its name. 20So the man was calling the names of all the domestic animals and of the flying creatures of the heavens and of every wild beast of the field, but for man there was found no helper as a complement of him. 21Hence Jehovah God had a deep sleep fall upon the man and, while he was sleeping, he took one of his ribs and then closed up the flesh over its place. 22And Jehovah God proceeded to build the rib that he had taken from the man into a woman and to bring her to the man.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by ICANT, posted 05-31-2010 9:19 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by ICANT, posted 06-01-2010 11:09 AM Peg has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 235 of 607 (562692)
05-31-2010 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by ICANT
05-31-2010 9:47 PM


Re: Comparison of Gen 1 & 2
ICANT writes:
There is a creation event that takes place in Genesis 1:1.
The history of that creation is recorded in Genesis 2:4-25.
well you see, i and many others dont see it that way.
The earth was not created in 1 day.
The earth was created along with the universe/heavens over milleniums of time. The entire 'time' is what is one 'day'.
In chpt 1 vs 2, the existing earth was in a primitive condition so God proceeds to work on it to prepare it for habitation. Chpt 1 is a chronological description of that creative process said to span 6 time periods or 6 'days'
Chpt 2 gives a recap of the creative process after its completion. The 7th day begins and God rests thus signifying that everything he had planned to create was complete.
From vs 5 onward, the writer gives us more detailed info about Adams creations, the garden & the woman in their original condition.
Chpt 3 explains how the first 2 humans came to loose their garden home and how they became sinners.
Chpt 4 tells us about their first children of Adam and Eve
Chpt 5 traces the family line of Adam from his 3rd son Seth - Noah.
You dont see a pattern forming here with regard to the genesis account?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by ICANT, posted 05-31-2010 9:47 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by ICANT, posted 06-01-2010 12:20 PM Peg has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 244 of 607 (562789)
06-01-2010 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by ICANT
06-01-2010 11:09 AM


Re: Do you care to Debate the Affirmed?
ICANT writes:
Do you mean like vegetation in Genesis 1:11, 12 on the third day before light on the fourth day in Genesis 1:14?
Not at all.
You see, this is why you cant simply read an english translation of the hebrew and think that the english translation is the 100% truth.
There are actually two hebrew words in Genesis that represent the english word 'light', The english translators use the word 'luminaries' in the 2nd instance.
The hebrew word on the first day is ohr but the hebrew word on day 4 is ma'ohr
the first means general light and the second means source of light. This is why we should understand the light on the first day as being diffused light coming thru the atmosphere and the light on the 4th day as the actual sun being visible in the sky.
Much like when you switch on your lamp. You cannot see the light globe, but your room still lights up. If you take off the shade, then you'll see the source of light - the globe.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by ICANT, posted 06-01-2010 11:09 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by ICANT, posted 06-03-2010 6:44 PM Peg has not replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 245 of 607 (562790)
06-01-2010 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by ICANT
06-01-2010 12:20 PM


Re: Comparison of Gen 1 & 2
ICANT writes:
Do you have evidence to support that assertion?
Then you immediately contradict your statement by making the following statement.
Peg writes:
The earth was created along with the universe/heavens over milleniums of time. The entire 'time' is what is one 'day'.
When did that Day end?
I am dumbfounded.
Peg agreeing that the Heaven and the Earth was created in ONE DAY.
what is a day (yom) in hebrew? The english language wasnt even thought of when the bible was written so why on earth would you want to use english to determine what the hebrews wrote. This is what I just dont understand.
If i told you a story in english, a language you understood, would you then try to find an indian or mexican translation of my story in order to try and understand my story???
Anyway, have fun in this thread...im done like a dinner!
Good luck with your book.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by ICANT, posted 06-01-2010 12:20 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by ICANT, posted 06-03-2010 6:57 PM Peg has not replied

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