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Author Topic:   "Chariot Wheels" In the Red Sea
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7051
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 16 of 43 (579766)
09-05-2010 11:29 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Blue Jay
09-05-2010 11:19 PM


That sounds official
There is a thing called underwater archaeology. There are a lot of artifacts in a lot of places that cannot or should not be removed from the water. I see nothing that says the Egyptians will not allow people to view the artifacts in situ. Also, has anyone found anything from the Egyptian gov't saying these artifacts cannot be removed? Or do we rely on buzz and a website?


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Blue Jay, posted 09-05-2010 11:19 PM Blue Jay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Blue Jay, posted 09-07-2010 3:10 PM Theodoric has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7051
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 17 of 43 (579768)
09-05-2010 11:44 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Buzsaw
09-05-2010 11:17 PM


Re: Exodus Revealed Video
He's a scientist who has done scientific research on this and no crackpot.

quote:
Lennart Moller specializes in the earth hazards of air pollutants and the damage to DNA that they cause. Since 2001, he has been a professor of environmental medicine in the department of bioscience at Karolinska Institutet, one of Europe's largest medical universities and Sweden's main center for medical training and research...
Then there are the references to Ron Wyatt. If ever there was a true native of Däniken Land, it was him. Wyatt’s writings on Biblical archaeology are such extreme flights of fancy that even many creationist debaters dismiss them as wild imaginings...
The Exodus Case is such an extreme example of pseudo-science that any reasonably well-informed reader will wonder if Möller is joking.

Source
Martin Rundkvist, the reviewer, is an archaeologist specializing in the pre- and protohistory of Scandinavia. He is a member of the board of the Swedish skeptic organization, Vetenskap och Folkbildning, and co-editor of the association's quarterly, Folkvett. He lives in the suburbs of Stockholm, Sweden, 400 meters from a Viking-period cemetery.

Maybe not a crackpot, but a nutball.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
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DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2083
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 18 of 43 (579778)
09-06-2010 12:50 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Buzsaw
09-05-2010 11:17 PM


Re: Exodus Revealed Video
Perhaps it would be good to view Lennart Mollart's claimed evidence.

Likely Mollart and Wyatt are/were liars and con man out to make a quick buck off the gullible.


It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 16061
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 19 of 43 (579799)
09-06-2010 2:00 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Buzsaw
09-05-2010 11:17 PM


Re: Exodus Revealed Video
quote:

erhaps it would be good to view Lennart Mollart's claimed evidence.

And note that it adds no evidence of wheels, and in fact reuses Wyatt's claims. (Including Wyatt's photograph of the "Gold wheel").

quote:

The primary reason further research has not been done is that Egypt has forbidden anything to be removed from the region under their jurisdiction and then there's the Saudis on the other side who have the Mt Sinai region restricted.

Likely the Muslims have a reluctance to verify anything Biblical which would look good for Israel.


Of course it is far more likely that they don't want foreigners looting their land of valuable historical artifacts. I'm sure that Muslims would love evidence of the great prophet Moses' victory over pagan polytheists.

quote:

I have Lennart's complete video, the Exodus Revealed and his book, The Exodus Case. He's a scientist who has done scientific research on this and no crackpot. His exploration was undertaken after Wyatt's death and independently of Wyatt. Wyatt, who was not a scientst, was the one who first pioneered and explored the region.

Moeller endorses Wyatt's crazy rewrite of the 18th Dynasty. THat qualifies him as a crackpot. And while Wyatt wasn't involved directly in the expedition, Moeller is a follower of Wyatt and his book and video reuse Wyatt's "evidence" and repeat Wyatt's claims.


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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 43 (579828)
09-06-2010 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Omnivorous
09-05-2010 11:24 PM


Re: Exodus Revealed Video
I have followed this for decades, beginning with listening to Wyatt lecture at a college before he died when he showed us 35mm slides of his expeditions. I met him and had a talk with him after the lecture. I believe this was back in the 1980s. I have his book on Noah's ark and the Mollart videos.

According to Wyatt's Noah's Ark book, the only thing the Israelis disallowed his revealing was the Ark Of The Covenant, which he says was found by revelation in a cave under what is considered the site of Golgatha, the Biblical place where Jesus was crucified.

Beyond that, he was allegedly admonished not to digress on this. So far as I am aware, the Israelis had no objection to his other discoveries.

BTW, all of Wyatt's expeditions, were based on Biblical record data, such as Sinai being in Arabia and the land of Midian, etc. The reason Swedish scientist Lennart Mollart became interested in Wyatt's pioneered discoveries was that he too, agreed that Wyatt's discoveries were consistent with the Biblical record, whereas the traditional Mt. Sinai and the route leading to that traditional site was meither consistent with the Biblical record or even a possibility topographically as a crossing site. .

He has been maligned, not only by secularists, but but none other than ICR, whose founder Dr John Morris Sr thought Noah's ark should be high on Mt Ararat, when in fact, that is not consistent with the Biblical account. I have had some exchanges of contact with Morris on this in the past. Though I support much of what ICR does, I fault Morris for refusing to acknowledge Wyatt's credibility. Imo, he, like the secularists would have to admit he was wrong and would have to revise all of what he has claimed and written/published relative to Noah's Ark and the Exodus, etc.

Interestlingly, when you Google Exodus evidence The Mollart evidence does not come up for a couple of pages and then scanty. There's too much at stake for secularists (and for that matter, some creationists) for them to acknowledge anything relative to Wyatt, et al as credible.

Edited by Buzsaw, : Name spell correction


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 753 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 21 of 43 (579834)
09-06-2010 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Buzsaw
09-06-2010 8:54 AM


Re: Exodus Revealed Video
Buzsaw writes:

Interestlingly, when you Google Exodus evidence The Mollart evidence does not come up for a couple of pages and then scanty. There's too much at stake for secularists (and for that matter, some creationists) for them to acknowledge anything relative to Wyatt, et al as credible.


Oh please. Google works by taking the links that are clicked the most and places them at the top. This just means that people aren't interested in the Wyatt/Mollart evidence. As a consequence, not many click that link, which means it is more further down, which in turn of course means that it won't be clicked as much.

Also, I'll take a look at your video this evening (or is it the same one you provided in the previous thread?), and let you know what I think.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 32371
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 22 of 43 (579843)
09-06-2010 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Buzsaw
09-05-2010 11:17 PM


Re: Exodus Revealed Video
Again, bring the evidence here. I imagine most everyone here has seen that silly video.

The primary reason further research has not been done is that Egypt has forbidden anything to be removed from the region under their jurisdiction and then there's the Saudis on the other side who have the Mt Sinai region restricted.

That is simply not true. Both Egypt and Saudi Arabia have very active archaeological studies and Egypt regularly has materials sent out for analysis all over the world.

Likely the Muslims have a reluctance to verify anything Biblical which would look good for Israel.

Another absolute nonsense statement. Moshe happens to be one of Islams prophets.

But again, Buz, as usual, you present NO evidence in support of your position.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Buzsaw, posted 09-05-2010 11:17 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 43 (579852)
09-06-2010 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Huntard
09-06-2010 9:25 AM


Re: Exodus Revealed Video
Huntard writes:

Oh please. Google works by taking the links that are clicked the most and places them at the top. This just means that people aren't interested in the Wyatt/Mollart evidence. As a consequence, not many click that link, which means it is more further down, which in turn of course means that it won't be clicked as much.

Thanks for apprising some of us who were not aware on how search engines work. That explains why so many sheeple are unaware of evidence which is available on the Exodus and other Biblical creationist phenomena. If they're unaware, they don't search for specific evidences. Whatever is promoted in secularistic academia and the public media is what gets highlighted in the search engines.

Huntard writes:

Also, I'll take a look at your video this evening (or is it the same one you provided in the previous thread?), and let you know what I think.

The link I gave is just one segment of a few minutes of the Exodus Revealed DVD. There are four parts to the DVD plus another suppliment which you can view relative to corroborating evidence revealing the Aqaba region as the crossing and Mt Sinai in Arabia/Midian, etc..

Now Huntard, I am expecting that this evening, the first thing EvC's Huntard, along with a host of other members will do is to surprise us all with, "Praise Jehovah! My eyes are open! Scientific evidence for the Exodus evidence exists."


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 16061
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 24 of 43 (579855)
09-06-2010 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Buzsaw
09-06-2010 10:35 AM


Evidence of Chariot wheels ?
A simple question Buz. Do you have any evidence of chariot wheels which is not covered in the OP ?

If not do you intend to retract your claim that chariot wheels were discovered since you cannot provide a single confirmed example ?


This message is a reply to:
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Admin
Director
Posts: 12657
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002


Message 25 of 43 (579861)
09-06-2010 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Buzsaw
09-06-2010 10:35 AM


Re: Exodus Revealed Video
The topic of this thread is "Chariot Wheels" In the Red Sea, yet the words "chariot" and "wheel" appear in none of your posts. Please address the topic and present your supporting evidence in your messages while using links only as references. From the Forum Guidelines:

  • Please stay on topic for a thread. Open a new thread for new topics.

  • Bare links with no supporting discussion should be avoided. Make the argument in your own words and use links as supporting references.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 43 (579863)
09-06-2010 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by jar
09-06-2010 9:56 AM


Re: Exodus Revealed Video
jar writes:

Buzsaw writes:

The primary reason further research has not been done is that Egypt has forbidden anything to be removed from the region under their jurisdiction and then there's the Saudis on the other side who have the Mt Sinai region restricted.

That is simply not true. Both Egypt and Saudi Arabia have very active archaeological studies and Egypt regularly has materials sent out for analysis all over the world.

Ron Wyatt and his boys were imprisoned for 78 days when he tried to explore the real Mt Sinai, Jebel al-Lawz in the land of Midian in Saudi Arabia.

Jim and Penny Caldwell's story

Jim and Penny Caldwell's story of their 12 year experience living in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia reads more like a riveting novel of danger and intrigue than the true life story of a couple drawn to the Middle East because of employment in the oil and gas industry. With what began as a fascinating job opportunity there for Jim, he & Penny, along with their two small children Lucas and Chelsea took residence in the Eastern Province of Arabia on the Persian Gulf in the late 1980's. Little did they know that four years later they would be living "life on the edge" on a tumultuous covert mission, trekking through the ancient desert to research the archeological remains and location of the real Mount Sinai in the northwest corner of the country: a portion of the Hejaz mountain range better known as "Jebel al Lawz." Yes, we're talking about the same mountain of the Biblical account and the 40 year wandering of the Israelites. The Saudis have this area fenced in and actively guarded; a sharp warning to anyone attempting to get a closer look. "WHY?" one may ask. That's where the intrigue begins....

With 15 trips into this area along with their photographs and video evidence, not to mention the many detailed journals from each excursion that Penny wrote on site, the Caldwell's field reports make them the MOST experienced and knowledgeable westerners on the topic of Mount Sinai in Saudi Arabia. Books, videos, and websites about this topic have all been produced for others around the evidence Jim and Penny continued to uncover and share year after year, though their names could not be known while still inside the kingdom. Their live presentation will take one on a riveting experience to the very edge of their seats as they are now finally able to share about backpacking their way into restricted areas and behind forbidden fences, leading them at times to arrest at gunpoint by the frontier forces police. Yes that's right, semi-automatic weapons pointed right in the faces of their two small children! Never the less, they were "called" back to the mountain to gather as much data as possible, for they knew their mandate would one day be to take that which is actively being hidden away from sight to the world! And this, in of all places in Saudi Arabia!

ABE: My apologies. I was posting simultaneously to Admin's admonishment.

Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 32371
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 27 of 43 (579866)
09-06-2010 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Buzsaw
09-06-2010 11:02 AM


Re: Exodus Revealed Video
If true (and honestly there is no more evidence for this than there is for the Chariot wheels) it still has nothing to do with what I posted.

They are not archaeologists, not even a hint that they are trained, and in fact even admit that they never applied for research permits in the first place.

I'm sorry Buz but so far you still offer no evidence in support of the existence of any chariot wheels.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 43 (579867)
09-06-2010 11:13 AM


Moving on.
Since I have supplied all that I have on the chariot wheels and since corroborating evidence supportive to the topic at hand is considered off topic in this thead, perhaps I will have no further comment relative to this topic.

If something comes to mind relative to topic I will aire it.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 32371
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 29 of 43 (579868)
09-06-2010 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Buzsaw
09-06-2010 11:13 AM


Re: Moving on.
So you have no evidence that there were ever any chariot wheels.

BUT one final question.

Since all of the area the Hebrew exodus supposedly trekked through was Egyptian Territory and had been so for a long, long time and would remain so for even longer, even if some chariot wheels were found, how would that provide evidence in support of the Biblical Exodus?

Also, there is this thread, Did the Biblical Exodus ever happen?, where you can present other non-chariot evidence you believe supports your position.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Buzsaw, posted 09-06-2010 11:13 AM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7051
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 30 of 43 (579870)
09-06-2010 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Buzsaw
09-06-2010 11:02 AM


Re: Exodus Revealed Video
Jim and Penny Caldwell's story

And this has to do with Chariot Wheels how?

This whole idea of Mt Sinai being in Saudi Arabia is hilarious. In order to get to this premise you have to throw out the bible and what it says. My fave part is that Mt Sinai in Arabia is originally an Islamic idea.

quote:
Placing Mt. Sinai somewhere in Arabia is not new, contrary to what has been implied by Williams and Cornuke, but the specification of a particular mountain is relatively recent. The general idea goes back to about 1225 AD, when Muslim geographers began to arbitrarily shift Biblical place names — largely because they had been identified by Christians — from the Sinai to Arabia, as a kind of polemic against the Crusades.

Source

Read the whole thing. There are even references. Also, it is a Christian site, none of those damn Atheists.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
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