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Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Atheist Appreciation of Biblical Wisdom and Inspiration | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dogmafood Member (Idle past 378 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
Are there particular passages that I can be directed to as being of significant timeless wisdom and meaning? Are there particular parts that even a die hard atheist can point to as being inspirational and insightful? The book of Ecclesiastes is a remarkable summary of the human condition. Succinct, poetic and honest in every respect.
quote: I dont think there is single verse that I could not defend as true and wise. I would say that this book and a handful of JC's quotes comprise the essential wisdom of the bible. The rest is history, begatting and politics. Examples of perceived cause and effect.
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Dogmafood Member (Idle past 378 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
The welfare systems, hospitals, orphanages, educational systems, human rights activities, charities, etc. that have arisen as a result of the application of biblical principles have (those who were behind them would tell you) occurred because of the empowerment supplied to the individual by God. Without being plugged into that source, the wisdom would be stripped of it's motive power, and would struggle to rise above wishful thinking, New Year resolutions and sentimentality. Compassion, generosity, kindness and curiosity are human qualities that existed long before they were noted in the bible. They would continue to exist without the bible. The bible is a result of them not a cause.
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Dogmafood Member (Idle past 378 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
I feel the story of Job also shows us that bad things don't necessarily happen to people because of sin. People used to feel (some probably still do) that disease was caused by sin. We see a mention of it in the NT in John 9:2. Yeah, the book of Job shows us that we can be good and faithful hardcore believers and still get completely fucked over by a petty, egotistical, child-like God. You notice at the beginning that Satan was just hanging out not bothering anybody when God gets all up in his face about how great he is. God then proceeds to prove his point at Job's obvious expense. I just dont get this. Taken as a parable I guess it shows us that you should hang in there. It also shows us that God places a high value on material things. I was inspired to look up when distillation was invented.
Job 36:28 Which the clouds do drop [and] distil upon man abundantly.
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Dogmafood Member (Idle past 378 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
I suppose the vulgarity is unnecessary.
To get those lessons from Job you only have to accept that Job believes in God even if you don't. So what is the lesson? Job 28:28 And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that [is] wisdom; and to depart from evil [is] understanding. What is our reaction to something that we fear?
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Dogmafood Member (Idle past 378 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
I think I indicated in general terms where and what I thought the lessons were. Your cites aren't anywhere close. I agree that some portions of Job are strictly religious lessons that won't speak to atheists. Perhaps I missed that. You made reference to Job's relationship with his friends. The lesson I see there is that you should stick to your guns and not be swayed. That your loyalty belongs to God no matter what. Help me out. Which parts of Job would you consider universally wise?
Also, if instead of being merely atheistic, you are actively hostile, Job will probably bog you down. It is pretty tough reading. Based on the little I've seen here I would not recommend Job to you. As for the vulgarity, I'm a sailor. I didn't even notice it. I thought that you took the vulgarity as a sign that I was upset and hostile. This is not so. Also, are you wafting slights in my direction? Is the wisdom of Job beyond my uninspired comprehension? I cited Job 28:28 as something that might be considered wise. My reaction to things that I fear is to pay very close attention to them. To learn about and understand them. To change them into something that I do not fear. The phrase "...and to depart from evil [is] understanding." in the same verse seems to support this interpretation. From the OP;
If those with more biblical knowledge than I were to try and pinpoint the parts of the bible that they think stand out as significant regardless of ones belief which parts would they direct me to? And why? Is wisdom relative and subjective? Do you have to be in the club to get it? Edited by Dogmafood, : sp
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Dogmafood Member (Idle past 378 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined:
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For example, what principles might one substitute for faith in God and still have essentially the same story? Optimism or perseverance? Looking on the bright side of life?
No. What I took as hostility was your complaints about how God was portrayed in Job. In my opinion, that material is irrelevant to the topic. I would agree that God is irrelevant to the topic of wisdom in the bible. In fact I would say that one has to disregard the God concept to clearly see the wisdom in the bible. God is the 'placeholder' word for the unknown. The ten commandments are a fine description of sustainable moral behaviour. I would say that having them chizelled out by God is simply a control mechanism. An appeal to fear. For many years I was completely blind to the wisdom of the bible because I couldn't get past the ludicrous notion of God. I threw out the baby with the bath water. When I replaced the God concept with the idea of the universe or 'the way things are', I was able to read the bible in whole new light and the wisdom and lessons of history became suddenly sharp and sensible.
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Dogmafood Member (Idle past 378 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
Except that half of the ten make no sense if God is not real. Thats right, they dont make any sense if God is some dude with a long white beard and a big ego on his throne. It is the personification of God that causes the problem. Take God to mean the nature and laws of the universe. The whole idea of 'fearing the Lord thy God' is an instruction to seek to understand the nature of the things which surround us.
quote: By being smart and resourceful and by paying attention to the winds that sometimes blow all the water to the other end of the lake so you can walk across in a pinch.
quote: Pay attention to what the laws of nature say. It is the only way.
quote: The consequences of ignorance are long lasting.
quote: The consequences of gaining empirical knowledge are long lasting and wide spread.
quote: Be humble and tell the truth?
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Dogmafood Member (Idle past 378 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
A bit forced I think You mean when compared to this?
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Dogmafood Member (Idle past 378 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
Here are a few other verses that may support the idea without so much straining. I did a blue letter bible search for 'wisdom' and these are a few of the returns. I really like the first one.
quote: ABE; Maybe a side observation would be that the bible opposes science no more than science opposes the bible. This of course requires that one reads the bible with their eyes open. Edited by Dogmafood, : No reason given. Edited by Dogmafood, : No reason given.
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Dogmafood Member (Idle past 378 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
The thread isn't about how many times the word wisdom is used in the Bible. It is about verses or stories that actually teach us and hopefully make us wiser. It has nothing to do with science. I said I would agree that God is irrelevant to the topic of wisdom in the bible. In fact I would say that one has to disregard the God concept to clearly see the wisdom in the bible. The bible reads completely differently without the precept of a sentient God. By replacing the God concept with the concept of ‘natural world’ or ‘laws of nature’ or ‘way of the universe’ one is able to see wisdom that is otherwise concealed. The cited verses support the idea that ‘fearing the Lord’ leads to understanding the way of things. Which has everything to do with science. I would also say that every one of the cited verses has something to offer on its own. [abe] But the meaning changes along with your concept of God. As an atheist I find it curious how much wisdom the bible contains when viewed with a rational eye.
I really didn't think this topic was going to be so difficult. Expectation is the mother of disappointment. Edited by Dogmafood, : No reason given.
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