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Author Topic:   What IS evidence of design? (CLOSING STATEMENTS ONLY)
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3267 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 246 of 377 (608348)
03-09-2011 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by havoc
03-09-2011 8:45 PM


Point 1: you might want to move your time table up you dont want to miss the flight.
Point 2: already have.
Considering the "flight" has been "imminent" for about 2000 years now, I'm not going to hold my breath,
If you're arguing that Pasteur's experiments "prove" abiogenesis is impossible, then either you don't understand science, or you're letting your dogma override the scientific proces.

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Perdition
Member (Idle past 3267 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 259 of 377 (608426)
03-10-2011 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 251 by slevesque
03-10-2011 1:56 AM


Well I'm not the one who brought this up. All I am saying is that, if anything, observed lack of extraterrestial life is evidence against the existence of a naturalistic mechanism to get life. But of course, and I'll repeat myself, I totally agree we haven't searched enough for this to hold any weight.
Cool. I'll leave this then, we seem to be in tentative agreement.
You can't really apply this ''test'' (I wouldn't have chosen that word but oh well) to a supernatural designer, unless you are willing to embark on the theology of what a designer would or would not do.
I don't see why the same argument against natural life can't be used on designed life.
Seeing you speak in absolutes, I assume you are very near 100% sure that we will eventually find extraterrestial life. Seems like a faith-based statement, however.
I think the probability of life elsewhere follows logically from the science of evolution, but I admit, until we find anything, my certainty is not fully explained by the evidence. You could call it faith, but it's a faith I'm perfectly willing to abandon should new evidence come in to refute it.
You need more then physics to explain DNA, RNA and life. You also need information theory.
I'm not sure how information has more to do with RNA than with solar spectroscopy.
I also currently study physics at university, and I understand what you mean, but you are neglecting the information aspect that life contains, and this is what seperates it from simply being ''special chemistry''.
Again, there is information inherent in every chemical process, every physical process, and every biological process. How his information more relevant to RNA/DNA than to solar spectroscopy?
The chemical interactions between the molecules of a DNA strand tells us nothing about the information it contains, because it does not depend on the interactions but in the order of those molecules, and this must be viewed from the POV of information theory, not chemistry.
The order of the molecules is determined by chemical reactions.
This is why it is the fallacy of composition to attribute to life only the characteristics that it's individual components hold.
What is it about life that makes it more than the sum of its chemistry. I'll readily admit that humans, chimps, dolphins and other higher order life forms have emergent properties that make them more than chemistry, but that's not inherent to "life." What makes a single-celled organism more than chemistry?
''Pigs can fly'' isn't a universal negative.
True, but the argument that life can't form from non-life is usually stated as if there is a law that prevents it, which is a positive claim. If you don't believe that, then we can drop that argument, since you seem to be saying that it is possible for life to form from non-life.

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Perdition
Member (Idle past 3267 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 271 of 377 (608468)
03-10-2011 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 269 by slevesque
03-10-2011 3:17 PM


However, the case seems to be different with DNA. The information in DNA does not come from any interaction it has, but from an established code which we have all seen:
We devised that "code" to describe the way DNA interacts with RNA and amino acids to create proteins. It's all chemistry inside the cell.

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 Message 275 by slevesque, posted 03-10-2011 3:55 PM Perdition has replied

Perdition
Member (Idle past 3267 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 276 of 377 (608486)
03-10-2011 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by slevesque
03-10-2011 3:55 PM


Is this true, Wounded King?
You're missing the point. The code isn't descriptive of the interactions; GAA isn't any more physically attracted to Glutamic acid then CAC. Nor is Phenylalaline more attracted to UUU then Leucine.
There is no physical basis for the code, the code is simply descriptive of 'how it is', with no other reason for it.
I'm not a geneticist, but I'd say you're quite wrong. If there was no reason, involving either hydrogen bonds or something equally chemistry/physics-esque, there'd be far more creationists in that field.
I wonder if WOunded King could shed some light here?

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Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by Wounded King, posted 03-10-2011 6:01 PM Perdition has replied

Perdition
Member (Idle past 3267 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 291 of 377 (608555)
03-11-2011 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 284 by Wounded King
03-10-2011 6:01 PM


Re: Is this true, Wounded King?
Thanks!
What I'm getting out of this is, we're not entirely sure why the affinity is as it is, but there are some hypotheses that indicate lines of investigation where we might figure out why it is as it is.
Am I sort of right?

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 Message 292 by Wounded King, posted 03-11-2011 10:17 AM Perdition has replied

Perdition
Member (Idle past 3267 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 293 of 377 (608562)
03-11-2011 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 292 by Wounded King
03-11-2011 10:17 AM


Re: Is this true, Wounded King?
The original hypothesis put forward by Crick, often called the 'frozen accident', is that the correspondences are essentially arbitrary and that at some point the modern genetic code simply became fixed in the common ancestral population although many other codes are equally viable, and some more optimal
Interesting.
But, no matter how the correspondences worked out, evolution would still have worked on them, keeping proteins that worked and discarding ones that didn't, right? So, ultimately, except from an efficiency standpoint, it doesn't really matter how the correspondences could have matched up?

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