Going to hell? Fringe lunatics

mike, "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them." - Matthew 7:18-20"No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other." - Matthew 6:24a"Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." - John 3:5-6"But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." - I Corinthians 2:14These passages quoted are all found in the New Testament. However, if one considers the imagery of the Old Testament, one will see quite a clear dichotomy drawn between the Church and the world. This dichotomy, once again, is drawn quite sharply in both Testaments. The Old Testament draws a very sharp dichotomy between the nation of Israel and the world around them. This nation was made to prosper when they obeyed the commandments of God, as in contrast to the nations around them, which were overthrown constantly, plagued, diseased and afflicted because of their disobedience to the sovereign God of the universe. Now this nation was, as the prophets and the writers of the New Testament assert, a model of what the New Testament Church is to be: "But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham." - Romans 9:6-7Paul asserts here in this verse that just because a person is the seed of Abraham does not mean that they are children of Abraham (meaning spiritual children, who follow the pattern of Abraham's righteousness). Thus, he says, all who are of Israel are not necessarily Israel, that is to say, all who are in the Israelite nation are not necessarily parts of the true Israel. The true Israel consists of those people who serve Jesus Christ, who have been born of the Spirit, who have received the irresistible grace of God, and those who frame their lives according to the teachings of Jesus Christ.I urge you to read Romans chapters 1-11, or at least chapters 6-9. Paul constantly uses dichotomous speech in these chapters. He makes great points of contrasting those of the Spirit and those of the flesh; those who walk according to the Law and those who practice lawlessness or unrighteousness: "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible manand birds and four-footed animals and creeping things." - Romans 1:18-23Did you read that whole passage? If not, read it all. Did you comprehend that passage? If not, please reread it until you do.You may notice that I quoted several passages from the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7). I noticed also that you quoted one from the same sermon; the famous and almost universally known, "judge not, that ye be not judged". You also said: "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment." - John 7:24This verse establishes righteous judgment as judgment that judges not according to the appearance. This implies, then, that unrighteous judgment is judgment that judges according to the appearance. Thus, to judge that an atheist is perhaps justified because he appears lovely on the outside is to judge unrighteously. To judge him righteously would be to judge what his heart submits to: whether it submits to Christ, or to man. He who submits to Christ will profess it, and will not be known but by his master. For is the slave known by any but by his master? Not often. The master is the one who is known, and the servant is known by the master. He who is not in submission to Christ is against Christ, for: "He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad." - Matthew 12:30

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Am I supporting the church group who sought to horrify the funeral participants at the non-sodomite soldier's funeral by holding up horrendous signs? No. But perhaps for different reasons than you.The Bible makes no equivocations about the lawfulness of homosexuality. It is most unambiguously wicked and unlawful. But this does not justify the actions of those demonstrations at the soldier's funeral. For one, the soldier was not a Sodomite. For another, the blood of sinners does not cause God to rejoice. All life proceeds from God, and there is no life that does not proceed from God. But God is also a just God, that is, He does not violate His standards of righteousness by allowing homosexuals to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. This is not to say that a repentant and redempted Sodomite cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven, of course. For another, God does not necessarily judge an entire army because of some sinners within the army. At any rate, the actions of the demonstrators was obviously wickedly motivated, and was meant only to horrify and scandalize men by using blasphemous falsehoods. They did not stand for truth, nor for Jesus Christ.This does not justify homosexuals however. No man can be justified but through Jesus Christ (note that I assume a need of justification; this need is absolutely universal).No "particular" group is "particularly" worthy of hell, except for the "particular" group of sinners, which includes everybody who has been born of Adam. I only know of one being who is not a sinner, for they were not born of Adam: Jesus Christ. In him only then is freedom from sin, which all humans have been enslaved to.

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"For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe...But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, that no flesh should glory in His presence. But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from Godand righteousness and sanctification and redemption that, as it is written, He who glories, let him glory in the LORD. (I Cor. 1:21,27-31)

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"Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! For who has known the mind of the LORD? Or who has become His counselor? Or who has first given to Him and it shall be repaid to him? For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen." (Romans 11:33-36) ~ Sola Deo Gloria

ICANT, Keeping in mind, of course, that He also said: Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill." - Matthew 5:17The root idea of the verb fulfill is to fill a cup to the brim, to satisfy, to make complete - to fulfill. To fulfill the Law and the Prophets then is to fill the cup, the cup being the Law and the Prophets. But one does not throw away the cup to drink and savor the liquid inside; rather, the cup is the perfect means by which they drink the savory liquid inside.Of course, the cup is useless if there is no liquid to put in it. But the liquid is not understandable or comprehensible unless it is in the cup.So, just a reminder to let the Law and the Prophets stand as Jesus said, so that His two commandments, though they are the sum of the Law and Prophets, do not perfectly convey to our human minds what we must do. They are the sum, but not the particulars.

Rahvin, "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." - I Cor. 6:9-10To believe in Jesus Christ means more than to merely profess with the mouth that you believe in him. To believe in Him is to have one's mind, heart, and soul completely framed around His Lordship. And His Lordship is not defined by a nebulous and meaningless bond, but by a distinct and understandable Law, spelled out in ink in both Old and New Testament.And who are those who frame their lives around his Lordship, or who "conform to this image" of Christ? "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." - Romans 8:29Those who are predestined, by God - from the foundations of the earth. The salvation by faith doctrine was formalized by Martin Luther and his followers and co-laborers. The doctrine was meant only to counter the doctrine of the Catholic Church in the 15th and 16th centuries that gave as the reason for justification obedience to the Law. It was one of the many controversies between the Reformers and the Papists at that time. This doctrine, however, deals only with justification, which is only the beginning of the life of a Christian. Justification has as its necessary fruit sanctification, which is defined in terms of the Law-word of God. As Jesus says, "you will know them by their fruit", the fruit being sanctification. Justification is thus not an outwardly discernible process, but its fruit is. Paul terms it well, in a continuation of the above cited verse: "Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified." - Romans 8:30This is the sequence of the process of salvation: no one component can be left out, or no salvation is effected. The first element is predestination, or election before the foundation of the world unto salvation. The calling is that eye-opening of the spirit performed by God which leads a man to place his faith in Jesus Christ. Having placed his faith in Jesus Christ (which is done only by the calling of God), the man is justified by the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ performed on the cross, which vicariously pays the debt demanded by the sins of the man. Then comes the last, and essential, element: glorification. This element includes sanctification. Sanctification is the process by which men, having been justified, work towards perfection upon this earth, that perfection which is not perfectly obtained until we reach heaven, at which point the salvation process is absolutely complete, our perfection having been obtained.

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"For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe...But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, that no flesh should glory in His presence. But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from Godand righteousness and sanctification and redemption that, as it is written, He who glories, let him glory in the LORD. (I Cor. 1:21,27-31)

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"Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! For who has known the mind of the LORD? Or who has become His counselor? Or who has first given to Him and it shall be repaid to him? For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen." (Romans 11:33-36) ~ Sola Deo Gloria

Jon,Excellent point. This points to a well-known but essential theological principle: the incarnation of Jesus Christ.Jesus Christ exists, always has existed, and always will exist as fully God. He exists first in eternity as the only begotten Son of the Father. Both are equally God, and both are one. Jesus Christ though, to make the necessary atonement for sin, had to become fully man for a time, in order that He might live vicariously a righteous life, in order that we might also live a righteous life.When born, Jesus Christ was born of a betrothed virgin. He was not born of a man and woman, but of the Spirit and a woman: "After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not wanting to make her a public example, was minded to put her away secretly. But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins. - Matthew 1:18-21The man is the parent through which sin comes, because the man stands as the being first created by God (think back to the Garden of Eden), and as the one commanded not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Note that Adam and Eve did not notice they were naked when Eve ate of the fruit, but when Adam ate of the fruit. This does not demean or lower the role of the woman, but merely differentiates between the proper roles of men and women in the world. Thus, since by Adam they fell, through the man comes sin: therefore, regarding the birth of men, men who are born of men are all sinners. Men born of the spirit and a woman, though, are not. This is because the woman, though she is descended from Adam, does not pass the "sin nature" to her descendants. But what she did pass down to Jesus was a physical body. This is why Christ had to be born of a virgin: so that he could live just as we live. But by virtue of His birth of the Spirit, He was not a sinner: and yet He was fully man.Incredible.Edited by sac51495, : No reason given.

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"For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe...But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, that no flesh should glory in His presence. But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from Godand righteousness and sanctification and redemption that, as it is written, He who glories, let him glory in the LORD. (I Cor. 1:21,27-31)

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"Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! For who has known the mind of the LORD? Or who has become His counselor? Or who has first given to Him and it shall be repaid to him? For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen." (Romans 11:33-36) ~ Sola Deo Gloria

hooah,Refer to my Message 21.

Jon, I clearly built my message on Genesis 2-3. In Genesis two, God creates - first - man: "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being." - Genesis 2:7Then he give the man one commandment: "Then the LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die. - Genesis 2:15-17Then he created woman: "And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. Then the rib which the LORD God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man." - Genesis 2:21-22Next, Genesis 2 quite significantly notes: "And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed." - Genesis 2:25So then the serpent tempts Eve, and she gives in. "So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate." - Genesis 3:6Then, Adam eats of the fruit: "She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked" - Genesis 3:6-7At which point they see their nakedness. So the crucial sequence of events is that we do not see God directly command Eve not to eat. This is exemplified in that they did not perceive their nakedness until Adam had partaken: they did not fall into sin until Adam had disobeyed. This does not mean it was okay for Eve to eat, but it does mean that she was not the one directly accountable to God. With the disobedience of Adam sin came into the world, not the disobedience of Eve. This is an idea supported by other scriptures: "But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God." I Cor. 11:3Therefore, with the disobedience of man, sin came into the world: thus it is by the man that the curse of sin is conveyed to the children. Note what is said in the curse of Genesis 3: "And I will put enmity between you [the serpent] and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel." - Genesis 3:15All biblical scholars and theologians cite this as an obvious prophecy of Jesus Christ, that is, the reference to the seed of the woman. What is significant here is that it refers to Christ as the seed of the woman, not of the man.I already cited the verses in Matthew which state that Christ was born of a virgin and the Spirit. Edited by sac51495, : No reason given.

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"For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe...But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, that no flesh should glory in His presence. But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from Godand righteousness and sanctification and redemption that, as it is written, He who glories, let him glory in the LORD. (I Cor. 1:21,27-31)

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"Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! For who has known the mind of the LORD? Or who has become His counselor? Or who has first given to Him and it shall be repaid to him? For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen." (Romans 11:33-36) ~ Sola Deo Gloria

GDR, As Jesus himself said, "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 5:18-19