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Author Topic:   How did Evolution produce Symmetry?
Dr Jack
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Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 3 of 73 (62092)
10-22-2003 5:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by defenderofthefaith
10-22-2003 4:23 AM


It's not true that animals are perfectly symmetrical. Only the external organs are (approximately anyway). This makes good functional sense, a fish with one side more developed than the other would swim best in circles, a spider with six legs on one side and two on the other wouldn't walk so well, a fish with two eyes on one side and none on the other would be vulnerable to attack from the side with no eyes, and unable to forage effectively on that side.
You'll note that external symmetry is broadly true of man-made vehicles too, look at a car, a bike and a plane for example.
How could a random process of evolution
Incidently, this is a strawman - evolution is not a random process, although it does have random elements.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by defenderofthefaith, posted 10-22-2003 4:23 AM defenderofthefaith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by nator, posted 10-24-2003 8:59 AM Dr Jack has replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 15 of 73 (62301)
10-23-2003 5:46 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by defenderofthefaith
10-23-2003 5:06 AM


An extra eye on one side of our head would be asymmetrical and probably beneficial as well.
How so?
Ten fingers (2*5)
Pentadactyl limbs are believed to be an evolutionary 'accident'. As to why we have two hands, see below:
two arms (2*1)
We evolved from four legged animals, four legs is the minimum number for easy walking (since you can maintain a stable tripod at all times - which is what the earliest known land animals seem to have done). Symmetry is the best for easy movement.
two eyes, ears
Two is the minimum number required for stereoscopic sensing.
and a nose precisely in the middle.
If you've got a body plan based on two of things, where is the logical place for something you only need one of? That's right, in the middle. Otherwise you'd de-balance the body plan, with the resultant constructive and mechanical difficulties.
And of course there are the decorations, such as completely symmetrical designs on butterfly wings. How did evolution come up with that?
Symmetry is almost universally attractive among animal species (including humans). Butterfly decrorative patterns are generally either display, or eye-mimic patterns. Display patterns will want to be symmetrical for the above mentioned reason, eye-mimic patterns need to match the eyes of those they mimic.
There is a good reason for the attractiveness of symetrry, perfect symmetry (as opposed to near-perfect symmetry) is very difficult to build, it otherwords it's energetically expensive, while being functionally minimally advantagous. Thus successful mate material will be able to spare the energy required for symmetry while less fit organisms will not.

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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 18 of 73 (62338)
10-23-2003 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Darwin's Terrier
10-23-2003 9:31 AM


That was an unnecessarily rude response, Darwinsterrier.

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 Message 17 by Darwin's Terrier, posted 10-23-2003 9:31 AM Darwin's Terrier has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Darwin's Terrier, posted 10-23-2003 6:24 PM Dr Jack has replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 29 of 73 (62535)
10-24-2003 5:45 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Darwin's Terrier
10-23-2003 6:24 PM


Darwin's Terrier:
It was unnecessarily rude for the following reasons:
  • While Defender may have been slightly patronising in his post, he was doing so to demonstrate his point rather than insult.
  • The information in your post was valid, but by being so rude and adversarial you add nothing to the debate.
  • When one is right, one can afford to be gracious.
  • An overly aggressive stance such as yours actually weakens your position, and by association, our position.
Maybe you're new to this E/C lark.
How about you keep your assumptions to yourself, hey?

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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 35 of 73 (62557)
10-24-2003 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by nator
10-24-2003 8:59 AM


You are, of course, correct. There are several (many?) exceptions to the general rule of animal symmetry; I'd considered discussing this in my original post, but felt it would over-complicate matters. What is interesting is that asymmetry always occurs for functional reasons as well.

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