kbertsche writes:
quote:
How about saying that the universe has a finite age?
Rahvin has a point: "begin to exist" does have its problems. Normally, when we say something begins to exist, we mean that there's a time when it didn't followed by a time when it did. But if, as many cosmologists seem to say, time is an aspect of the universe, then there was no time when the universe didn't exist, making it different from everything else that "began to exist".
I don't see how (A) "began to exist" implies prior time any more than does (B) "has a finite age". They seem pretty similar to me in this respect. Based on our normal experience, both would suggest prior time. But neither one
necessarily implies prior time. Both imply a "zero-point" to the thing's existence,
No they don't both imply that (see below).
but neither one says anything about what happened "before" the thing's existence.
The main difference that I see between (A) and (B) is one of perspective. With (B), "has a finite age", one is viewing a thing's existence from the present, and looking backward toward when the thing "started" or "began to exist". With (A), "began to exist", one is viewing the thing from its origin or starting point.
Even more to the point, (B) "has a finite age"
does not imply (A) "began to exist". If (B) is true
and (A) is false, where does that leave the Cosmological argument,
which requires a beginning in the first place?
Looking at the analogy of the North Pole, (B) is somewhat analogous to saying "this city is at a finite latitude", while (A) is somewhat analogous to saying "our latitude coordinate system begins at the North Pole". Both imply that there is a starting point to latitude coordinates. But neither one says anything about the possibility of {... latitudes greater than 90 degrees North...}.
Perhaps another analogy may be appropriate here. In thermodynamics, you could say that
absolute zero is the lowest possible temperature, but in our universe (as far as we know), attaining a temperature of absolute zero is physically impossible. Thus, in a sense, there is
no such thing as a starting point of temperature, in spite of the fact that absolute temperature can't get to either zero or less than zero.
DWIII