Aurora Colorado Violence

I don't understand this. Again, handguns are far more dangerous than AR-15's, based on the number of people who die by them, but you all are focused on this single type of gun because it looks like something soldiers carry.

No, but again - it's the number of rounds in the weapon that matter in this case, not the rate of fire. If there were such a thing as a 100-round revolver, I'm certain that he could have hurt or killed just as many people. And I support legislation that would legally limit the number of rounds any weapon could hold at a time. I can't see how it matters whether you can fire off your seven legally-allowed shots in 30 seconds or 3.

id you already forget about Jared Loughner and his 33-round Glock handgun?

And it's simply a matter of fact that handguns are more lethal than rifles.

How do you legally define "meant to kill lots of people"?

Obviously not, since they don't sell the AR-15 to the Army. They sell the M-16 to the Army, which is the militarized version of the AR-15. The AR-15 predates the M-16.

Um, whether or not that's true does make a difference, because if more people were killed with knives than with guns that would mean that knives were more dangerous than guns. You can't just say that what is true or not makes no difference. Truth matters. And the truth is that handguns are far more dangerous than rifles, "assault rifle" or not.

Certainly, I could even with an old S&W 19.

Did you already forget about Jared Loughner and his 33-round Glock handgun?

So how much did you contributed to the verbiage in the Assault Weapons Ban? If you have the experience, why was it written so poorly?

I don't doubt there are people with experience who "want tougher gun laws", I was talking about the Assault Weapons Ban and how stupidly shitty it was written.

So how, exactly, do you want the gun laws to be tougher?

People who know nothing about guns wrote the Assault Weapos Ban.

Its based on aesthetics like the grip, stock, and magazine and that's stupid.

What does your experience and opinion about guns have to do with how stupid the Assault Weapons Ban was?

Its based on aesthetics like the grip, stock, and magazine and that's stupid.

Okay, so how do you stop that and what is the justification?

Did they write the law?

Well they may or may not be stupid. But the people who wrote that law are definately stupid.

You writes:No, you took yourself down it in Message 57:

If those people aren't the ones who wrote the law, then how does it pertain to the point?

You haven't read about the Assault Weapon Ban, have you? It doesn't restrict magazine capacity, its restricts pistols from having magizines that attach outside of the grip. Who the hell cares where the magazine goes in and how does that address how dangerous a gun is and whether or not its an "assault weapon"? Its stupid!

It shall be unlawful for a person to manufacture, transfer, or possess a semiautomatic assault weapon.Paragraph (1) shall not apply to--...any semiautomatic rifle that cannot accept a detachable magazine that holds more than 5 rounds of ammunition; or(D) any semiautomatic shotgun that cannot hold more than 5 rounds of ammunition in a fixed or detachable magazine.....a semiautomatic shotgun that has at least 2 of--...`(iii) a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds; and`(iv) an ability to accept a detachable magazine.'.Except as provided in paragraph (2), it shall be unlawful for a person to transfer or possess a large capacity ammunition feeding device....The term `large capacity ammunition feeding device'--`(A) means a magazine, belt, drum, feed strip, or similar device manufactured after the date of enactment of the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 that has a capacity of, or that can be readily restored or converted to accept, more than 10 rounds of ammunition; but `(B) does not include an attached tubular device designed to accept, and capable of operating only with, .22 caliber rimfire ammunition.'

Not stupid. But...I suspect that law enforcement officers are not all that enamored with how the courts interpret the first, fourth and fifth amendments either. I'm sure that the police have some good reasons for wanting fewer guns on the street, but we cannot always rely on their good intentions as reasons to accept diminshing our rights.

John Adams writes:Government is instituted for the common good; for the protection, safety, prosperity, and happiness of the people; and not for profit, honor, or private interest of any one man, family, or class of men; therefore, the people alone have an incontestable, unalienable, and indefeasible right to institute government; and to reform, alter, or totally change the same, when their protection, safety, prosperity, and happiness require it.

It does not restrict the capacity of the magazine that a rifle or pistol can take. The magazine restiction on pistols is about where the pistol can take the magazine, i.e. it has to go in the grip. And that's what I'm calling stupid. Making a pistol that takes a mag somewhere outside of the grip doesn't really make that gun more dangerous so its stupid to legislate against that.

SEC. 110102. RESTRICTION ON MANUFACTURE, TRANSFER, AND POSSESSION OF CERTAIN SEMIAUTOMATIC ASSAULT WEAPONS.(a) RESTRICTION- Section 922 of title 18, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following new subsection:`(v)(1) It shall be unlawful for a person to manufacture, transfer, or possess a semiautomatic assault weapon.`(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to the possession or transfer of any semiautomatic assault weapon otherwise lawfully possessed under Federal law on the date of the enactment of this subsection.`(3) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to--`(A) any of the firearms, or replicas or duplicates of the firearms, specified in Appendix A to this section, as such firearms were manufactured on October 1, 1993;`(B) any firearm that--`(i) is manually operated by bolt, pump, lever, or slide action;`(ii) has been rendered permanently inoperable; or`(iii) is an antique firearm; `(C) any semiautomatic rifle that cannot accept a detachable magazine that holds more than 5 rounds of ammunition; or`(D) any semiautomatic shotgun that cannot hold more than 5 rounds of ammunition in a fixed or detachable magazine.The fact that a firearm is not listed in Appendix A shall not be construed to mean that paragraph (1) applies to such firearm. No firearm exempted by this subsection may be deleted from Appendix A so long as this subsection is in effect.`(4) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to--`(A) the manufacture for, transfer to, or possession by the United States or a department or agency of the United States or a State or a department, agency, or political subdivision of a State, or a transfer to or possession by a law enforcement officer employed by such an entity for purposes of law enforcement (whether on or off duty);`(B) the transfer to a licensee under title I of the Atomic Energy Act of 1954 for purposes of establishing and maintaining an on-site physical protection system and security organization required by Federal law, or possession by an employee or contractor of such licensee on-site for such purposes or off-site for purposes of licensee-authorized training or transportation of nuclear materials;`(C) the possession, by an individual who is retired from service with a law enforcement agency and is not otherwise prohibited from receiving a firearm, of a semiautomatic assault weapon transferred to the individual by the agency upon such retirement; or`(D) the manufacture, transfer, or possession of a semiautomatic assault weapon by a licensed manufacturer or licensed importer for the purposes of testing or experimentation authorized by the Secretary.'.(b) DEFINITION OF SEMIAUTOMATIC ASSAULT WEAPON- Section 921(a) of title 18, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following new paragraph:`(30) The term `semiautomatic assault weapon' means--`(A) any of the firearms, or copies or duplicates of the firearms in any caliber, known as--`(i) Norinco, Mitchell, and Poly Technologies Avtomat Kalashnikovs (all models);`(ii) Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and Galil;`(iii) Beretta Ar70 (SC-70);`(iv) Colt AR-15;`(v) Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR, and FNC;`(vi) SWD M-10, M-11, M-11/9, and M-12;`(vii) Steyr AUG;`(viii) INTRATEC TEC-9, TEC-DC9 and TEC-22; and`(ix) revolving cylinder shotguns, such as (or similar to) the Street Sweeper and Striker 12;`(B) a semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of--`(i) a folding or telescoping stock;`(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;`(iii) a bayonet mount;`(iv) a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; and`(v) a grenade launcher;`(C) a semiautomatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of--`(i) an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip;`(ii) a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer;`(iii) a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the nontrigger hand without being burned;`(iv) a manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded; and`(v) a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm; and`(D) a semiautomatic shotgun that has at least 2 of--`(i) a folding or telescoping stock;`(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;`(iii) a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds; and`(iv) an ability to accept a detachable magazine.'.(c) PENALTIES-(1) VIOLATION OF SECTION 922(v)- Section 924(a)(1)(B) of such title is amended by striking `or (q) of section 922' and inserting `(r), or (v) of section 922'.(2) USE OR POSSESSION DURING CRIME OF VIOLENCE OR DRUG TRAFFICKING CRIME- Section 924(c)(1) of such title is amended in the first sentence by inserting `, or semiautomatic assault weapon,' after `short-barreled shotgun,'.(d) IDENTIFICATION MARKINGS FOR SEMIAUTOMATIC ASSAULT WEAPONS- Section 923(i) of such title is amended by adding at the end the following: `The serial number of any semiautomatic assault weapon manufactured after the date of the enactment of this sentence shall clearly show the date on which the weapon was manufactured.'. SEC. 110103. BAN OF LARGE CAPACITY AMMUNITION FEEDING DEVICES.(a) PROHIBITION- Section 922 of title 18, United States Code, as amended by section 110102(a), is amended by adding at the end the following new subsection:`(w)(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), it shall be unlawful for a person to transfer or possess a large capacity ammunition feeding device.`(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to the possession or transfer of any large capacity ammunition feeding device otherwise lawfully possessed on or before the date of the enactment of this subsection.`(3) This subsection shall not apply to--`(A) the manufacture for, transfer to, or possession by the United States or a department or agency of the United States or a State or a department, agency, or political subdivision of a State, or a transfer to or possession by a law enforcement officer employed by such an entity for purposes of law enforcement (whether on or off duty);`(B) the transfer to a licensee under title I of the Atomic Energy Act of 1954 for purposes of establishing and maintaining an on-site physical protection system and security organization required by Federal law, or possession by an employee or contractor of such licensee on-site for such purposes or off-site for purposes of licensee-authorized training or transportation of nuclear materials;`(C) the possession, by an individual who is retired from service with a law enforcement agency and is not otherwise prohibited from receiving ammunition, of a large capacity ammunition feeding device transferred to the individual by the agency upon such retirement; or`(D) the manufacture, transfer, or possession of any large capacity ammunition feeding device by a licensed manufacturer or licensed importer for the purposes of testing or experimentation authorized by the Secretary.'.`(4) If a person charged with violating paragraph (1) asserts that paragraph (1) does not apply to such person because of paragraph (2) or (3), the Government shall have the burden of proof to show that such paragraph (1) applies to such person. The lack of a serial number as described in section 923(i) of title 18, United States Code, shall be a presumption that the large capacity ammunition feeding device is not subject to the prohibition of possession in paragraph (1).'.(b) DEFINITION OF LARGE CAPACITY AMMUNITION FEEDING DEVICE- Section 921(a) of title 18, United States Code, as amended by section 110102(b), is amended by adding at the end the following new paragraph: `(31) The term `large capacity ammunition feeding device'--

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`(A) means a magazine, belt, drum, feed strip, or similar device manufactured after the date of enactment of the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 that has a capacity of, or that can be readily restored or converted to accept, more than 10 rounds of ammunition; but

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`(B) does not include an attached tubular device designed to accept, and capable of operating only with, .22 caliber rimfire ammunition.'.(c) PENALTY- Section 924(a)(1)(B) of title 18, United States Code, as amended by section 110102(c)(1), is amended by striking `or (v)' and inserting `(v), or (w)'.(d) IDENTIFICATION MARKINGS FOR LARGE CAPACITY AMMUNITION FEEDING DEVICES- Section 923(i) of title 18, United States Code, as amended by section 110102(d) of this Act, is amended by adding at the end the following: `A large capacity ammunition feeding device manufactured after the date of the enactment of this sentence shall be identified by a serial number that clearly shows that the device was manufactured or imported after the effective date of this subsection, and such other identification as the Secretary may by regulation prescribe.'

Come on, buddy. You know none of us support gun violence to any extent whatsoever. Murder (whether by gun or otherwise) is completely illegal and we fully and ardently support such laws. And we've shown incredible restraint in dealing with your poorly-reasoned and vague arguments, when we could have, in the worst tradition of gun defense, referred to you as a goose-stepping, Constitution-shredding, proto-Nazi weenie and reminded you that among the first acts of Hitler's domination of Germany was that he disarmed the populace. I think we deserve more reciprocal consideration than to be accused of condoning murder.

To which you get into the parts of the bill that don't have anything to do with defining what an "assault weapon" is, that is, what guns are called "assault weapons"... which is what I was talking about.... which is what makes it stupid.

This is a qualification for an exempltion from classification as an assault weapon. It does not define an assault weapon by magazine size.

As I said, we could have said those things, but didn't. I mentioned them not to introduce them into the conversation, but because those are common arguments by gun defenders when things get a little heated.Godwin's Law doesn't apply, here - you weren't compared to a Nazi.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.