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Author | Topic: Down To The Wire 2012 >>POLITICS<< | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Larni Member Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: |
I sometimes wonder whether America is so culturally diverse that it is impossible to be meaningfully democratic.
The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer. -Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53 The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286 Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
What does it mean to be "meaningfully democratic"? My point is that we currently have division, consensus is tentative and shaky, and unity is needed.
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Jon Inactive Member
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What does it mean to be "meaningfully democratic"? Where a majority of people actually benefit from having a 'majority rules' system. When there are so many large and diverse groups, it becomes possible to enact policies that actually favor none of them; or worse, it becomes easier to enact policies that only favor the most powerful of them, regardless of their actual representation in the group.Love your enemies!
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Unity is easy to achieve, all that is needed is a Monarch or Dictator. My way or the highway.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
("lower taxes" and then "close loopholes" to make the whole thing "budget neutral?" If it doesn't do anything to the budget then why bother enacting it?) I think its for the medium to smaller companies that don't, or cannot, take advantage of the loopholes. High taxes does stifle newer business development and if you can promote that kind of growth then you can get more jobs n'stuff.
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Jon Inactive Member |
High taxes does stifle newer business development Who says we need newer business development?Love your enemies!
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9199 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2
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High taxes does stifle newer business development
Conventional wisdom but not based on facts. The highest growth period for business and productivity was during period of highest taxes in the US. You can research this, cuz you will just whine and bitch if I post a link. You say that can't be true. It is look at the figures. How can that be? It is smart tax policy. It is using tax policy to stimulate growth and investment. If corporations and individuals know they are going to be hit with a huge marginal tax rate they do things to lower the income. For example, XYZ is going to get hit with a 70% tax rate for profits over 100 million. It is going to show profits of $150 million. So what does a smart company do? It spends 50 million on business expansion. Why give government 70% when they can reinvest it in themselves? Instead of paying the CEO an extra 10 million a smart tax policy incentivizes the company to give the money to people lower down the totem pole or make capital investments. You say that wont work. History has shown you wrong already. Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
You say that can't be true. Quote me saying that.
The highest growth period for business and productivity was during period of highest taxes in the US. That doesn't mean the taxes caused the growth. And what kinds of businesses were growing? The larger the business the less the tax is going to impact their growth. And those are the ones that more take advantage of the loopholes too. Smaller businesses have it harder and relieving some of the taxes would help them.
Instead of paying the CEO an extra 10 million Yeah, I'm not talking about those kinds of companies.
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onifre Member (Idle past 2979 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
Where a majority of people actually benefit from having a 'majority rules' system. When there are so many large and diverse groups, it becomes possible to enact policies that actually favor none of them; or worse, it becomes easier to enact policies that only favor the most powerful of them, regardless of their actual representation in the group. Well we've had the civil rights movement, and the anti-discrimination laws. That's seemed to work due to majority rule. If we go back far enough we see many cases where this was the case. Freedoms have become too diverse now perhaps, and there's still a lot of catching up to do. But it does seem like overall progress has been made and it's been mostly due to majority rule, or rather the eventual lead up to majority rule. - Oni
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onifre Member (Idle past 2979 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined:
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High taxes does stifle newer business development and if you can promote that kind of growth then you can get more jobs n'stuff. Don't buy into that bullshit. Taxes have only gone up since they were introduced into the system and businesses have grown enormously. Higher taxes has never ever in history stifled new business. - Oni Edited by onifre, : No reason given.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
I'm not saying that businesses cannot succeed with high taxes. I'm saying that a reduction in these taxes could help small to medium sized business grow by reducing their cost to operate.
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4046 Joined: Member Rating: 7.4
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Well we've had the civil rights movement, and the anti-discrimination laws. That's seemed to work due to majority rule. Not quite. Civil rights have had to go through the court system against popular public opinion before becoming endorsed by the majority. Miscegenation laws were not eliminated due to majority rule - they were ruled unconstitutional by the courts. Anti-homosexuality laws and anti-sodomy laws were not eliminated due to majority rule - they were ruled unconstitutional by the courts. School segregation...well, you get the picture.
Sometimes majority rule works - but the "two wolves and a sheep deciding what's for dinner" metaphor is accurate: majority rule leads to the persecution of minorities. That's why the US system isn't a straight democracy, and also why it's not just a representative republic - it's a constitutional representative republic, which means that there is a mechanism by which an oppressed minority can circumvent majority rule to force equal treatment.
overall progress has been made and it's been mostly due to majority rule, or rather the eventual lead up to majority rule. The key word being eventual. Only after the majority is first forced to give way to the oppressed minority, and then gets to stew for a while and notices that not only did the sky not fall, but those minority folks aren't so bad. The pattern is that the courts force the majority to bend knee...and the forced equal treatment, over a generation or two, causes a greater social integration whereby the newer generations have grown up thinking that equality is the natural order (which it should have been all along), and become the majority as their bigot elders die off. Forgive me if this does not cause me to cheer the glories of democracy.The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus "...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds ofvariously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4046 Joined: Member Rating: 7.4 |
I'm not saying that businesses cannot succeed with high taxes. I'm saying that a reduction in these taxes could help small to medium sized business grow by reducing their cost to operate. That depends entirely on the taxes. A tax increase on profits over $100 million will not affect a new start-up business, for instance. Not even a little. Not all tax policy changes are equal. It's rather difficult to talk about "higher taxes" as a generalized entity when modern tax policy is clearly separated into income brackets and various targeted subsidies and incentives.The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus "...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds ofvariously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Do you see why someone might think that the bugetly neutral lowering of taxes and closing of loopholes could be worthwhile?
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onifre Member (Idle past 2979 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
I'm saying that a reduction in these taxes could help small to medium sized business grow by reducing their cost to operate. Well first, that cost is usually absorbed by the customer. But more to the point, in all of our history businesses have found a way to work with the tax system in place. Small and medium size businesses have always had the same chance to "grow" and "make it" as always. To say THIS is a time when taxes need to be lowered so that small/medium businesses can grow doesn't make a valid point. I'd worry more about job growth that increases people's spending potential than taxes. The more money people are making the more they spend. In that sense, the more the unemployment numbers keep dropping the better it really is for ALL businesses. - Oni
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