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Author Topic:   Some Evidence Against Evolution
mark24
Member (Idle past 5225 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 8 of 309 (69368)
11-26-2003 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Darwin's Terrier
11-26-2003 5:42 AM


Darwinsterrier,
British Museum of Natural History at Teddington.
The British Museum & the Natural History Museum are two entirely different entities as well, & neither is located at Teddington.
Mark

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Darwin's Terrier, posted 11-26-2003 5:42 AM Darwin's Terrier has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by PaulK, posted 11-26-2003 9:37 AM mark24 has replied
 Message 14 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-26-2003 6:36 PM mark24 has replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5225 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 11 of 309 (69376)
11-26-2003 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by PaulK
11-26-2003 9:37 AM


PaulK,
Just to be pedantic the "Natural History Museum" is more properly known as "The British Museum of Natural History".
It isn't. The official title is The Natural History Museum. It officially changed its name in 1963 when it was officially separated from the British Museum, by act of parliament, no less!
Mark

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by darlostt, posted 12-15-2003 2:06 PM mark24 has not replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5225 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 13 of 309 (69414)
11-26-2003 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Darwin's Terrier
11-26-2003 9:59 AM


I stand corrected, sir!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Darwin's Terrier, posted 11-26-2003 9:59 AM Darwin's Terrier has not replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5225 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 38 of 309 (69562)
11-27-2003 7:14 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Cold Foreign Object
11-26-2003 6:36 PM


WILLOWTREE,
.. The problem I have with the real bones and fossils is that they are locked away just like the Catholic Church locks away their treasures in vaults, which means we have to take someones word about the authenticity, which sounds to me like the same criticism that science levels at religion for having to take their word on it.
The results based upon study of the fossils are published, if you have a specific disagreement then by all means make it. As a professional palaeontologist you will be able to request access to the fossils in question if the fossils are in an institutions collection. If you aren't a professional palaeontologist, then there's not much point releasing valuable & rare fossils to laymen, is there? You are dangerously close to making an argument of the form, "I don't like what the conclusions are, it must be false, I have no specific complaint, so I'll charge evolutionary theory with mass fraud".
..also there should be millions and millions of bones for evolution to be true on the scale you claim it to be.
Taking your first point last, says who? Based on what maths do you arrive at the conclusion that there must be millions of bones (there are millions of bones, I'm assuming you mean for a single lineage)? Clearly, to arrive at an informed opinion you will have taken into account biogeography, (species ranges, dispersal patterns etc), local taphonomic considerations based upon the organisms natural environment, & the subsequent chance of such a fossil being exposed at the surface in the Holocene.
Show your working.
If you can't do that, then I put it to you that your subjective opinion isn't any great danger to palaeontology, & evolutionary theory in general.
Mark
[This message has been edited by mark24, 11-27-2003]

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mark24
Member (Idle past 5225 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 60 of 309 (70247)
12-01-2003 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Dr Jack
12-01-2003 8:38 AM


Mr Jack,
You have a population of rats: some white, some black. Suppose every hundred generations the population cycles from 95% black, 5% white to 5% black, 95% white and then back again. This is a change in allele frequency over time; it is not evolution (unless the change can be tracked to factors changing the relative fitness of black and white rats).
It is evolution, not necessarily adaptive evolution, but it is evolution. Neutral theory & genetic drift are non-adaptive, are in no way related to fitness, yet are still evolutionary mechanisms.
Mark

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 Message 59 by Dr Jack, posted 12-01-2003 8:38 AM Dr Jack has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Dr Jack, posted 12-01-2003 10:11 AM mark24 has replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5225 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 62 of 309 (70255)
12-01-2003 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Dr Jack
12-01-2003 10:11 AM


Mr Jack,
Yes, genetic drift and neutral genetic change occur and any general theory of evolution must take account of the; but they are not in themselves evolution. Thus JIM's statement "evolution can be aptly defined as the change in allele frequency over time" is false.
I agree that natural selection makes evolution compelling, but it isn't the whole story. There are both morphological & genetic characters that don't owe their prevalence to ns. It is still change over time, still evolution. Even your own examples change over time.
I think you are wrongly equating evolution with adaptation (in a pure sense). If butterflies with a particular wing vein pattern are replaced by another wing vein pattern, it is evolution even if drift or the founder affect was causal. Meaning drift & neutral theory can be the chief agents of evolutionary change for particular characters in some cases. You can't write this off as not being evolution.
Certainly not in the sense of The Theory Of Evolution.
Certainly is! They are synthesised as a part of the ToE, they can't be separated from modern evolutionary understanding. Pick up any modern evolutionary textbook.
If evolution is based on heredity, & the basic unit of that process is the gene, then allele frequency over time is a perfectly valid definition for evolution. Ultimately even macroevolution is explainable with this definition (lots of micro). It is a bit reductionist, I'll grant you, but valid nonetheless.
As far as I can see, the only real falsifying data would be non-allelic DNA having a phenotypic affect, & that very much depends on how you define gene or allele.
Mark
------------------
"Physical Reality of Matchette’s EVOLUTIONARY zero-atom-unit in a transcendental c/e illusion" - Brad McFall

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Dr Jack, posted 12-01-2003 10:11 AM Dr Jack has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Dr Jack, posted 12-01-2003 11:10 AM mark24 has replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5225 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 65 of 309 (70262)
12-01-2003 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Dr Jack
12-01-2003 11:10 AM


Mr Jack,
Large scale evolutionary change, particularly adaptive change, requires a coherent mechanism for change. ToE provides this with Natural Selection. Mere 'change' is no explanation.
I agree, but it can all be reduced to a "change in allele frequency". The mechanisms are unimportant to the definition, that's the job of the more expansive expositions. Even if certain mechanisms are more important under certain circumstances than others. A definition of evolution needs to be as short as possible, & as encompassing as possible. Natural selection, drift, etc. all do the same thing, they change the frequencies of alleles. It doesn't matter how complex a thing that ns can come up with, ultimately, at the reduced level all it's doing is changing allele frequencies. Looking at it the other way, complex morphological & chemical change is achieved by changing allele frequencies over time (plus naturally occuring variation, of course), so what's wrong with pegging the definition at the common genic level? I don't see how this is false.
Mark
------------------
"Physical Reality of Matchette’s EVOLUTIONARY zero-atom-unit in a transcendental c/e illusion" - Brad McFall

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Dr Jack, posted 12-01-2003 11:10 AM Dr Jack has not replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5225 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 307 of 309 (73661)
12-17-2003 4:02 AM
Reply to: Message 306 by Cold Foreign Object
12-17-2003 3:47 AM


Your belief is wrong, then. It isn't "science" at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 12-17-2003 3:47 AM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

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