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Member (Idle past 3848 days) Posts: 72 From: Los Angeles, California Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
GDR writes: If we are made in the image of God then how can we believe that He is a God that has one set of rules for us and another set for Himself?Faith writes: We don't have to because He doesn't. I believe that you agreed that it would be wrong for us to commit genocide but you also agree that it is ok for God.
Faith writes: Capital punishment is judgement, however it still requires somebody to carry it out, and even under judgement that act is going to harden the heart of the executioner and the God I worship is a god who wants to see our hearts softened. Just judgment is not evil, it is not murder. For example, the death penalty properly applied is not evil, it is not murder, it is just judgment. However we are covering the same ground over and over.
Faith writes: And I believe that if you DON'T regard the scriptures as inerrant, THAT is w hen you have a distorted picture of a God who IS loving, just, forgiving, merciful, patient, longsuffering, putting up with violations of His law for centuries before having to act in judgment. You believe in a one-dimensional caricature of Jesus, not the real Jesus. I contend that we have to understand the Scriptures as a complete narrative, from creation to new creation. It is the story of God working through the hearts and minds of the humans He created. It includes history told from a specific point of view, there is poetry, beautiful allegories and so on, but it does all string together. In the scriptures we can see a multitude of different perspectives of different authors and we through it all we gain a picture of the nature of God, His desires for us and we get a broad idea of His long term plan for His creation. I think that when we try and understand the Bible as being inerrant we lose perspective on God and what He is doing. If however we understand it as a narrative of God working through imperfect humans we can gain the perspective that God wants us to have. Neither of us are ever going to have certainty. My starting point is the resurrection which leads me directly to the Gospels. I then go to the OT to understand the Gospel message as Jesus was Jew speaking to the Jews of the day in terms that were meaningful to them. I then look to the Epistles to understand what His followers understood of all that Jesus did and said. Their views would be important as they had access to people that been with Jesus and heard what He had to say which would encompass far more than what we have available today. My own imperfect understanding is based on the Jesus I see in the Gospels. I take on faith that the writers of the Gospel were not in error when they tell of Christ’s resurrection and I take on faith that their best efforts to record Christ’s message are very close to accurate in spite of there being minor inconsistencies in the accounts. As far as what happens at the end of time I’ll leave that up to God trusting in the fact that He is a God of mercy, love and justice and that those are the qualities that will be used when our hearts are judged. I trust in his justice to understand the heart of an infant who died before ever being able to make a moral decision - I trust in His justice to understand the heart of a murderer who had been brutally abused as a child — I trust in His justice to understand the heart of someone who was mentally ill and I trust in His justice to understand my heart even when my theology is off the mark. If God is a god as you understand Him who sanctions genocide and public stoning then to be very honest I’m fine with being judged on that basis as well. That isn’t where my heart is and as a result I'm be imaging Him properly so I guess I’ll be in trouble. But on the other hand I don’t want to spend eternity under the dictates of a that kind of god. I do however desire to spend eternity under the God we see who washed the feet of the disciples, and welcomed the outcasts to His table.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Faith writes: Why don't you consult a Christian source instead of Wiki which gets all kinds of apostates and heretics to write its stuff? Here's one for you. Basic Christian Beliefs and Doctrines of Christianity There definition is:
quote: He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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Faith writes: Click on "Basic Doctrines and beliefs" on that page and you'll get a bunch of stuff including the Trinity spelled out as Christian doctrine. It's a bit wishy-washy and it doesn't mention Bible inerrancy. That's fine, but you wanted a definition from a Christian source and the definition they give is
quote: Obviously this includes many Christians who have huge doctrinal issues with you including Roman Catholics.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Faith writes: Exactly. It's vague enough to include apostates and heretics, as I said. It's useless. Oh very handy for the apostates and heretics though. Which exactly makes their point about there being "no true Scotsman". Frankly, you believe OT inerrancy over the words of Jesus so it would be reasonable for someone to claim that you aren't a true Christian.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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Faith writes: Paul was writing to Timothy after all, a young pastor, instructing him in his role as a pastor, how to run the church. That's the context of the remarks about women. In other words the Bible doesn't mean what it says. So much for you believing in inerrancy. You feel completely free to involve context when it the inerrant reading disagrees with your pre-conceived decisions about the Bible but you reject the context when it doesn't conflict with your beliefs. In this case you use the context of Paul speaking to Timothy and so there are specific reasons for what he has written, even though the text doesn't actually say that. I contend that the story of the slaughter of the Canaanites was written in the context of the fact that the ancient Jews wanted them out of the way and wanted to justify their actions, and so claimed that God told them to do it.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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Faith writes: I ALWAYS interpret the Bible according to context, as any good Bible reader does. You have some very strange ideas. We may have a slight disagreement over who has the strange views.
Faith writes: There are cases in the OT when the Israelites DID act without God's command or without consulting Him and those occasions are treated as serious error. There is NO such context to the story of the Canaanites which was ordered by God. But we come to our own conclusions about the context. You have decided that the context in which Paul talks about women is that because he was talking to Timothy it wouldn’t apply to you today even though if taken literally it would. In the case of the Canaanites, even though they had a self-serving interest to say that God commanded them to slaughter the Canaanites, they didn’t make it up, and the God who is all loving told them to kill every man woman and child, and yet you tell me that I have some strange ideas. Hmmmm.....He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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Faith writes: I never said what Paul said to Timothy doesn't apply to me today, I assume it does. All I said was that it was said in the context of CHURCH and this isn't church. OK here is the quote in context.
quote: Paul goes back to Adam and Eve. He talks about women being saved by bearing children which isn't usually done in church in my experience. Now I don't think that God wants women to be always submissive to men either because I take this in the context of the entire Biblical narrative which progressively recognizes the role of women in all walks of life, because of Jesus' treatment of women and because of Paul's cultural background. There is no reason to conclude, and when you actually read the passage every reason not to conclude, that Paul just meant it in the context of church. However, once again you don't read the Bible as inerrant when it doesn't conform with your own views. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
I'm going to re-post something I had in another thread which you chose not to reply to. It is an obvious example, (although I have a hunch you won't see it that way) of a contradiction in the Scriptures
I have been working my way through the OT and came across this story of how Jehu slaughtered all of the descendants and followers of Ahab using deceit and treachery.Here is the account from 2 Kings 10. quote: When we get to the end we can see that Jehu destroyed all of the places of worship of Baal so if you like it can be argued that Yahweh felt it necessary. Indeed it goes on to say that:
quote:So ostensibly here we have a case of Yahweh applauding a brutal treacherous slaughter as presumably the means must have justified the ends. Not exactly bed time reading for the little ones — is it? However when we read the book of Hosea chapter 1 we read the following.
quote:Yahweh was pleased with Jehu for what he did in 2nd Kings, he is now going to punish him for it in Hosea. This does strike me as more than a little odd and definitely un-God-like. It is clear that the scribe who wrote 2nd Kings had one political viewpoint and the writer of Hosea had another.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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Faith writes: Those who deny the inerrancy of the Bible of course won't persevere in trying to reconcile what seems to them to be an apparent contradiction, but that's what we have to do if we are going to understand the mind of God. Jehu did obey God in punishing the house of Ahab and the priests of Baal, but in his own life he also committed idolatry, showing that his obedience to God wasn't from right motives, and eventually his house came under God's judgment for that as well. But you are reconciling the passages but adding something that the text doesn't say or imply and even explicitly contradicts, in order to twist its meaning in order to comply with your pre-determined point of view This again is from 2 Kings: quote:The passage claims that God is saying that what he had done was right in his eyes. Hosea then says:quote: Hosea isn’t saying that the house of Jehu is being punished because of Jehu’s idolatry, he is saying it is because of the bloodshed of Jezreel. It is very specific and is in direct contradiction with the statement in 2 Kings. (Of course this isn’t even to mention that it is in complete contradiction to what Jesus taught.) Hosea even goes further in saying that because what Jehu had done in Jezreel that God will put an end to the kingdom of the house of Israel. It is patently obvious that these 2 different writers have 2 different points of view. Edited by GDR, : No reason given.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Faith writes: Purpledawn has posted an objection to this thread's going so far off topic in the Discussion Problems thread and she's right.I've been posting a notice on some of my latest posts that I won't respond to answers in this thread. It is not off topic IMHO. The questions in the OP relate to hell and the trinity and understood from the Bible. In order to understand the answers we have to determine how we are to understand the Bible in general. in order to even have the discussion.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
OK The problem is though that if you try and understand either hell or the trinity from Faith's perspective it all boils down to picking what appear to be relevant verses and then saying that there is your answer.
It is my contention that the Bible is to be read as a narrative, (of course one which includes all sorts of narratives within the big story), and as a result you come at it from a very different angle. In my view one or two verses wouldn't be considered conclusive. It is like the discussion of Thomas saying saying My Lord and my God. By Faith's reading that would be conclusive. Jesus is God whereas I would understand Christ's deity by working through the Gospels and then referencing what Jesus said with the OT to sort out just what He meant. As a result both Faith and I see Jesus as God in some sense but we actually mean slightly different things by that. By the way, I realize that to a degree I am simplifying Faith's position but I contend that essentially it is correct. At any rate there really wasn't much further we could go with the discussion anyway. ThanksHe has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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