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Author | Topic: My Beliefs- GDR | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
How do you know otherwise? Or there's this other view put forth by Ringo that the punishment hasn't worked anyway, the Flood and the rest of it, which just makes me wonder how he knows that, since things might be hundreds of times worse than they are if those punishments hadn't occurred, so depraved is the human race since the Fall. There might be thousands of bears prowling the streets if it wasn't for the Bear Patrol.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 315 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Yes, well it DID work for them, because all things in the OT looked forward to the Messiah who was to be their fulfillment. The sacrifices foreshadowed the one perfect sacrifice of Christ. The fundamental faith of the OT saints was faith in the promise given by God of the Messiah who would save them from their sins. The sacrifices of animals provided a picture of the costliness of atoning for sin, and done in faith, done with trust in God's promises, they also saved them. OK. So it's not true, then, that "only the sacrifice of the Son of God can purge sin". Apparently killing goats also works. So, remind me what the Atonement was for again? Did Jesus die to save us from our sins, or just to save us money that we'd otherwise have spent on goats? I mean, it's jolly decent of him either way.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Faith writes: Amazing. So many here consider it "vile and evil" that sin be punished, apparently believing that liars, thieves, adulterers, murderers, rapists, torturers, should be free from punishment. Remarkable. I see the best you can do is simply to continue lying. Whenever someone points out that you are marketing a vile, evil and immoral god your response is to lie and misrepresent what other people have posted. How pitiful.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
OK. So it's not true, then, that "only the sacrifice of the Son of God can purge sin". Apparently killing goats also works. So, remind me what the Atonement was for again? Did Jesus die to save us from our sins, or just to save us money that we'd otherwise have spent on goats? I mean, it's jolly decent of him either way. Sorry if I was not clear, let me try again: Animal sacrifices in themselves cannot purge sin, but in the light of the promise of the Messiah yet to come, whose sacrifice can and did purge sin when He did appear, God accepted the animal sacrifices as atonement for the people's sins.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Excuse me, but your judgment of God as vile evil and immoral was apparently based on my saying that He judges sin, therefore my conclusion that you object to the punishment of sin is correct.
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Granny Magda Member Posts: 2462 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.1
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Hi Faith,
Amazing. So many here consider it "vile and evil" that sin be punished, apparently believing that liars, thieves, adulterers, murderers, rapists, torturers, should be free from punishment. Remarkable. Admittedly, I've not been following all of this discussion, but I rather think that you have misinterpreted people here. It's not so much that people don't want God to punish sin, it's more that we'd prefer that he didn't punish innocents for other people's sins. Now you may think that a tornado in the face is a perfectly appropriate punishment for lying. Personally, I'd call it a bit of an over-reaction, but that's just me I guess. But let's assume that a lethal tornado is an ideal punishment for the sin of telling porkies; why should everyone else pay for the liar's sin? Why should nearby innocents die from that disaster? Why should children die? Why should Christians die? Why should animals die? I mean, you can't blame a woodchuck for humanity's sins, it's only a woodchuck. It's hardly fair to hold it responsible for the human misconduct. It seems clear to me that if God is using disasters as a punishment for sin, then he is either engaging in a particularly unpleasant form of collective punishment, or he just has really lousy aim. Mutate and Survive
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Straggler Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
I don't understand the distinction you are making here.
Animal sacrifices are accepted by God as atonement for sin. How is that different from the sacrifice of Jesus as atonement of sin? What's the difference?
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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And so you once again respond by misrepresenting what I wrote.
There is a pattern here Faith; you either are unable to actually read what is written or willfully misread what is written. In Message 467 YOU said:
Faith writes: Disasters and calamities are God's judgments for sins and crimes. to which I replied in Message 468jar writes: Sorry Faith but that is just another example of how vile and evil the god you try to market is. The god you try to market is worthy only of contempt or derision and must be opposed by any honest moral entity. Disasters and calamities are not discreet and effect both the sinner and the innocent, the criminal and the blameless. For disasters and calamities to be God's judgments for sins and crimes the god must be ignorant, immoral, without empathy, evil, inept and incapable of reasonable action. It is not judgement of sin I responded to but rather your description of the god you try to market, an inept bumbler who responds to sin (an area where a god might be relevant) and crimes (an area where a god is totally irrelevant) by using disasters and calamities, tools that indiscriminately punish both the sinner and the sinless, the criminal and the innocent. We see the same affliction when you are discussing the Bible stories, posting what others said some passage means instead of what the passage actually says.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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onifre Member (Idle past 2981 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined:
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It's not so much that people don't want God to punish sin, it's more that we'd prefer that he didn't punish innocents for other people's sins. I'd rather he not interfere at all. Don't punish anyone. We have our own laws that deal with that. Even the death penalty. So no need for god to send world wide floods and genocide of that nature. - Oni Edited by onifre, : No reason given.
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Granny Magda Member Posts: 2462 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.1
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Hi Oni,
I hear you and, for the most part, I agree. It would be nice if God could treat us like adults and let us run our own affairs. He's apparently going to judge us after we die, so I don't see why he can't just leave it at that. To punish before and after death seems like gilding the lilly. On the other hand, if God did punish sinners - and by that I mean only punish sinners, as opposed to just anyone unlucky enough to get in the way - then at least that might provide us with a clearer perspective on things. After all, if the wages of sin really were death, then we might be more inclined to play along and sin less. It would send a clear and coherent message. As it is, natural disasters appear to be just that - natural. They affect everyone in their path, innocent and guilty alike. It seems to me like he's giving off mixed signals. Gotta hand it to Faith though, she makes it real easy to be an atheist. I really don't want to believe in Faith's God. For all the flaws in his argument, I like GDR's God much better. Mutate and Survive
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
The only thing that can purge sin is repentence. Animal sacrifices in themselves cannot purge sin, but in the light of the promise of the Messiah yet to come, whose sacrifice can and did purge sin when He did appear, God accepted the animal sacrifices as atonement for the people's sins. If some alien overlord makes his own arbitrary demands, that has nothing to do with the purging of sin.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I don't understand the distinction you are making here. Animal sacrifices are accepted by God as atonement for sin. How is that different from the sacrifice of Jesus as atonement of sin? What's the difference? Animal sacrifices are NOT accepted by God as atonement for sin in themselves. Without the Messiah's sacrifice they would not be accepted at all. It is through the faith of Old Testament believers in the promise of His sacrifice yet to come that their animal sacrifices THEN count. God honors faith, their being done in faith. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Yes I see I didn't fully grasp your point,, sorry about that.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
So God accepted animal sacrifices as atonement for sin because those sacrificing animals had faith that heir sins would be atoned for by the coming of the Messiah - Is that right?
But if they had faith that their sins would be atoned for by the prophesised Messiah then they wouldn't have any need to atone for their sins by sacrificing animals. Sacrificing animals to atone for sins therefore suggests a lack of faith in a sin atoning Messiah.......
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The sacrifices were to demonstrate the need for sacrifice on a grand scale, to give a picture of what was required to atone for sin, the costliness of it. God gave many such physical and material pictures as a help to the faith of the people which otherwise would have been much weaker than it was. Of course you can always rewrite the Bible to suit yourself as so many here do, but in the end you may be surprised to find out it wasn't a good idea.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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