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Author | Topic: My Beliefs- GDR | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
GDR writes: I’ll deal with the nasty voice first. As Pogo said years ago, we have found the enemy and it is us. I think our first and instinctive response to things of a moral nature is to consider how this going to affect me. IMHO that makes sense even from an evolutionary point of view as is best epitomized by the wonderful mantra of the 60’s about looking out for number one. It's terribly modern to chuck away the devil and blame ourselves. It's also terribly Anglican. But making god the good guy and us the bad, is far too convenient an invention given that God apparently made us.
I believe that what we see as being natural inputs into our sense of morality is part of Tom’s plan. Well of course you do, but the problem is we've no reason to consider that as anything other than your personal opinion.
In addition to that though I believe that Tom does still focus our minds so that we are truly cognizant of the morality of the choices we make. This is more interesting because it touches on reality rather than your personal beliefs. You are saying that God gets actively involved somehow. I'd like you to say how and I'd like you to provide some reason why anyone would find what you say convincing.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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Straggler Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
GDR writes: You have taken what we know objectively and have built a theory around those facts and have subjectively formed conclusions that fit your preconceived atheistic views. So now you consider the scientific, evolutionary account of morality to be some sort of atheistic plot.......?
GDR writes: There is no objective evidence for that explanation. Pardon.....? Genes exist. Attributes that facilitate the propagation of genes flourish. Now I could also talk about the commonality of human psychology, the fact that the human brain is an evolved organ, the effects of physiological damage to the brain on moral reasoning, MRI scans, moral and altruistic behaviours in non-human species, altruism, compassion et al as instincts borne from the ancestral environment, the golden rule AND our inclination to make exceptions to it as naturally derived....and so on and so forth. I could mention all those things. But there is no need. Because just the fact that genes exist and that attributes which facilitate the propagation of genes flourish puts the evolutionary account of morality on a level of objective evidence that undetectable Tom and his undetectable influence on some undetectable mind-body-problem-plagued aspect of ourselves can only dream of. I'm afraid that in terms of objective evidence there is just no contest. Here is Wright on evolution, compassion and the golden rule - Link
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
Tangle writes: It's terribly modern to chuck away the devil and blame ourselves. It's also terribly Anglican. But making god the good guy and us the bad, is far too convenient an invention given that God apparently made us. I probably tossed that off too quickly. The Bible essentially talks about the satan. As humans pretty much the best we can do when it comes to dealing with these things is to anthropomorphise them so that we can properly deal with it. Dealing with a specific devil seems to make things easier somehow. There does seem to be a force for evil that does suck large groups of people into things such as the Holocaust. Now whether that force is stems simply from our base nature, or whether there is a force actually acting against God’s nature I don’t know. I just happened to be inclined to the former. I do know that evil is a very potent force in our human consciousness. As far as it coming from God is concerned I just see evil itself as a necessary evil. If we are to become truly moral creatures then we have to have had the opportunity to freely and joyfully choose to be moral. My own particular belief though is that with God’s perfect justice the suffering that is endured as a result of sin in this world will be made right in the next.
Tangle writes: Well of course you do, but the problem is we've no reason to consider that as an ything other than your personal opinion. Sure, it is my belief. I don’t know it objectively. It is my subjective conclusion formed from what I objectively know.
Tangle writes: This is more interesting because it touches on reality rather than your personal beliefs. You are saying that God gets actively involved somehow. I'd like you to say how and I'd like you to provide some reason why anyone would find what you say convincing. I don’t know how and I doubt I can say anything convincing. Certainly part of the reason I am so convinced is my personal experience which of course is meaningless to anyone else. I do contend though that we all have pangs of conscience. Presumably it is your contention that those pangs are exclusively the result of evolutionary processes. It is my contention that there is more than that involved, and that the processes have a pre-existing moral intelligence basis. In addition I contend that this intelligence still quickens our conscience by subtly influencing us to want to make the right moral choice. I realize that I am just re-stating what I said before, but the point is that we have subjectively come to opposite conclusions and that is all anyone can do.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
Straggler writes: So now you consider the scientific, evolutionary account of morality to be some sort of atheistic plot.......? I didn't say that. I often get accused of conforming my subjective conclusions based on my theistic beliefs. When that happens I don't consider that I am being accused of being part of a theistic plot.
Straggler writes: Interestingly enough he winds up by saying that nobody said that doing God's work was going to be easy. Here is Wright on evolution, compassion and the golden rule I really enjoyed Wright's talk and don't disagree with any of it. It does not however tell us anything about whether there is an ultimate plan or if Tom continues to nudge our conscience. He outlines the processes but doesn't delve into the subjective conclusion about whether or not the processes are mindless or intelligently designed. Here is a quote by Robert Wright his book Nonzero which I haven't yet read, but will eventually.
quote: I was looking around for more material by Wright and found this.
Robert Wright in NY Times Edited by GDR, : To add the last bit.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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onifre Member (Idle past 2981 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
You and Straggler claim that because we evolved from small hunter gatherer communities that we treat everyone as a close relative. Straggler and I aren't claiming this because we pulled it out of our ass (or arse for Straggler). We are telling you this because it is a fact. Altruism is also something that at the genetic level would selected for over selfishness. A group containing lots of altruists will have a survival advantage over a group composed mainly or exclusively of selfish individuals. There is plenty of evidence for this. You can start here: Kin selectionquote: Read up on it. Learn the facts before you try to argue against this stuff, GDR.
Now you are saying that because of our common heritage that these people who are who knows how many generations removed from my own gene pool are in that sense just as close to me as my kids. Are your kids not homo-sapiens?
That makes no sense to equate the gene pool of someone in Uganda that I have never met with my own offspring Umm, but it is the same gene pool. You and an individual from Uganda are cousins. We are ALL related, GDR. Did you go to grade school?
My own offspring would be better off if people in third world countries would just disappear so that we would have unfettered access to their resources. Right, but since you guys don't operate on an individual level, and in fact work for the better of the ENTIRE SPECIES, you look after those people who are in other countries. Don't let our geographical locations fool you, GDR, we are all related.
For that matter, as I said we spend money saving animals So what? You've adapted other charitable behaviors. You feel bad so you donate.
All we can do is subjectively conclude what to make of that. Huh? Why would we subjectively need to conclude anything about that? - Oni
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NosyNed Member Posts: 9004 From: Canada Joined: |
Umm, but it is the same gene pool. You and an individual from Uganda are cousins. We are ALL related, GDR. Did you go to grade school? That is my a... not yours. I think this is wrong as an explanation for what is going on. We evolved with both kin selection and a strong xenophobia. Us vs them. What is happening not, I think, without knowing a damned thing about it all, that the kin selection is what is working here. At least not because everyone in the world is a "kin" (at least not a close enough one). In many cases evolved traits get confused when the environment changes as drastically as it has in the last very few millenia. Our tendency to support others is a side affect of the evolved kin selection which is meant to be supporting the local few dozen people of our village who actually are kins. It gets "out of hand" (like many of our eating habits do in todays world) and applies to non kins because we don't have the tribal boundaries defined as obviously, constantly and incessantly as they used to be. Just my guess is all.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
oni writes: Straggler and I aren't claiming this because we pulled it out of our ass (or arse for Straggler). We are telling you this because it is a fact. Altruism is also something that at the genetic level would selected for over selfishness. A group containing lots of altruists will have a survival advantage over a group composed mainly or exclusively of selfish individuals. Yes we can see the benefits of co-operative behaviour but that is not the same as altruism. You are making claims that just aren't provable any more than Tom is provable. In the hunter gatherer world and still today the tribes with the biggest meanest guys wiped out the tribes with the nicest guys. Francis Collins has a PHD in Physical Chemistry a degree in medicine and was chosen to head up the human genome project, which was successfully completed.
quote: I don't pretend to understand genetics or evolution but Collins does and I'll repeat the one key line in this interview.
quote: This is not to say that he is right but he is likely better informed in this field than everyone else put together. I say again that regardless of where you have pulled this from you are using your pre-concluded atheistic beliefs to fit into your theories.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
GDR writes: The Bible essentially talks about the satan. As humans pretty much the best we can do when it comes to dealing with these things is to anthropomorphise them so that we can properly deal with it. Dealing with a specific devil seems to make things easier somehow. Surely you must have noticed that you've anthropomorphised Tom too? Good = God, Bad = Satan. There is no difference.
There does seem to be a force for evil that does suck large groups of people into things such as the Holocaust. Now whether that force is stems simply from our base nature, or whether there is a force actually acting against God’s nature I don’t know. I just happened to be inclined to the former. I do know that evil is a very potent force in our human consciousness. The 'force for evil' is exactly the opposite of the force for good - the golden rule - but you don't ascribe this to any godly thing - only the nice things are god derived. Don't you see a problem here?Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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Straggler Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
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GDR writes: This is not to say that he is right but he is likely better informed in this field than everyone else put together. In response to Collins....
quote: Link In fact on the subject of morality Collins seems intent on being wilfully ignorant:
quote: To whihc Harris responds:
quote:
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Straggler Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
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The problem is that what Wright refers to as "God" or "divine" seems to be the Platonic mathematical existence of non-zero sum logic......(rather than some conscious loving being)
That which (he argues) provides the direction for the naturally occurring expansion of the moral circle. Tom's relentless whispering as advocated by you here isn't remotely compatible with Wright's view of evolved morality as a consequence of kin selection and then non-zero-sum logic. How can it be when your entire moral position is based on the assertion that anything which is detrimental to the survival or procreation of the individual cannot possibly evolve.......?
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onifre Member (Idle past 2981 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
Yes we can see the benefits of co-operative behaviour but that is not the same as altruism. I'm talking about altruism, not coopertation, but I can see where the two overlap.
You are making claims that just aren't provable any more than Tom is provable. GDR, these are facts that we are explaining to you. Here, from the University of Standford: Biological Altrusim quote: In the hunter gatherer world and still today the tribes with the biggest meanest guys wiped out the tribes with the nicest guys. You're watching too many movies...
I don't pretend to understand genetics or evolution but Collins does and I'll repeat the one key line in this interview. Yes I know of him. He is a Christian who has let his beliefs in the Bible interfere with his science. There is no moral law. Knowing right from wrong is not a moral law. It's a by-product of evolving within a social group. That being said though, please provide the link where you got that quote from. It seems to be the case that religious websites have faked a lot of quotes concerning Collins and lie about his beliefs. What website did you find that quote in?
he is likely better informed in this field than everyone else put together. Well, no, he is not. Better informed than him when it comes to the biological evolution of altruism are those who actually do research on the evolution of altruism - like the Standford Uni link I provided for you.
say again that regardless of where you have pulled this from you are using your pre-concluded atheistic beliefs to fit into your theories. What I have explained to you are facts. If you like to reject them because you subjectively feel there is a god somewhere and he made us altruistic then fine. But you do so in the face of hard facts that contradict your beliefs. - Oni
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onifre Member (Idle past 2981 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
We evolved with both kin selection and a strong xenophobia. I'm not sure xenophobia fits here. We also evolved with group selection, but I've not seen xenophobia in anything I've read. But my point to GDR was in his use of the term gene pool. We are all from the same gene pool. But yes I agree that BOTH kin selection and group selection are at play here, and it is backed up by the link I provided to GDR in my last post to him. - Oni
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
Tangle writes: The only possible way we can understand Tom is anthropomorphically. The only real requirement is that Tom is a unified intelligence that is always good and always just. So yes I anthropomorphize Tom as well as the presence of evil. It is a way of comprehending the concept even though I believe Tom actually does exist although I`m a lot less sure of Satan.
Surely you must have noticed that you've anthropomorphised Tom too? Good = God, Bad = Satan. There is no difference. Tangle writes: The 'force fo r evil' is exactly the opposite of the force for good - the golden rule - but you don't ascribe this to any godly thing - only the nice things are god derived. Don't you see a problem here? As I believe that Tom is responsible for all life then I have to assume that he has allowed for evil to exist. If we can’t choose evil we are robots. If Tom wants to ultimately wind up with a society who have all rejected evil and embrace his vision of humble mercy, kindness and justice, then I can see where evil becomes necessary. However IMHO Tom does nudge us to choose the good, as well as instilling in our collective hearts and minds an understanding of the Golden Rule. We don’t have attacks of conscience when we do the right thing.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
OK Straggler. Let's look at Harris's quote.
Sam Harris writes: Collins’ case for the supernatural origin of morality rests on the further assertion that there can be no evolutionary explanation for genuine altruism. Because self-sacrifice cannot increase the likelihood that an individual creature will survive and reproduce, truly self-sacrificing behavior stands as a primordial rejoinder to any biological account of morality. In Collins’ view the mere existence of altruism offers compelling evidence of a personal God. But a moment’s thought reveals that if we were to accept this neutered biology, almost everything about us would be bathed in the warm glow of religious mystery. Does our interest in astronomy owe its existence to the successful reproduction of ancient astronomers? (What about the practices of celibacy and birth control? Are they all about reproduction too?) Collins can’t seem to see that human morality and selfless love may be elaborations of more basic biological and psychological traits, which were themselves products of evolution. It is hard to interpret this oversight in light of his scientific training. If one didn’t know better, one might be tempted to conclude that religious dogmatism presents an obstacle to scientific reasoning. In Harris' own words Collins claim is that " Because self-sacrifice cannot increase the likelihood that an individual creature will survive and reproduce, truly self-sacrificing behavior stands as a primordial rejoinder to any biological account of morality". Collins point is that a scientific understanding of evolution shows that altruism cannot come from a strictly biological account of evolution. Harris responds with not a scientific argument but a philosophical one and the winds up with a stab in the dark with this; "Collins can’t seem to see that human morality and selfless love may be elaborations of more basic biological and psychological traits, which were themselves products of evolution'. Like all arguments for strictly mindless biological explanations for altruism it is based on the argument that as we know there is no god there just has to be another explanation no matter how far-fetched, but the explanation is not science.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
Straggler writes: The problem is that what Wright refers to as "God" or "divine" seems to be the Platonic mathematical existence of non-zero sum logic......(rather than some conscious loving being)That which (he argues) provides the direction for the naturally occurring expansion of the moral circle. I realize that Wright is not a theist however he is not an atheist either. He has referred to himself in various ways but on the Colbert Report he called himself an agnostic. In the wiki report on Wright it has this quote.
quote: In the end he sits comfortably straddling the line between our views. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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