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Author | Topic: My Beliefs- GDR | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9515 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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GDR writes: Well if those billions of life will be carrying on in the next life I don't see them as being sacrificed. I can't believe you said that. It makes no sense in your own terms - you believe in a loving god that cares for us individually, but you think it's ok for him to experiment on people, making them suffer until he gets it right?
As for the reason things are the way they are I answered it the post that you replied to. That was a pure rationalisation - not an answer that stands on its own two feet.
You are right though, suffering is the biggest difficulty that we Christians have to provide an answer for, but in the end the best way we can do is to do something with our lives that alleviates the suffering of others. Given that suffering is purely a consequence of our evolutionary history, I agree with you. Meanwhile the problem of you believing in a lessor god that allows suffering when he could easily prevent it continues. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes: I can't believe you said that. It makes no sense in your own terms - you believe in a loving god that cares for us individually, but you think it's ok for him to experiment on people, making them suffer until he gets it right? I don't see it as experimenting on people at all. It is very much like our own children. We give birth to them and our job in raising them is to help them independently grow into people that make the right choices. Sometimes our efforts are successful and sometimes less so but we aren't experimenting.
Tangle writes: That was a pure rationalisation - not an answer that stands on its own two feet. I agree that we don't have certainty. It was an explanation for which I have no proof. I didn't guarantee that the answer was right. It is however consistent with the world we experience and with God as seen through the lens of the Gospel accounts.
Tangle writes: Given that suffering is purely a consequence of our evolutionary history, I agree with you. Meanwhile the problem of you believing in a lessor god that allows suffering when he could easily prevent it continues. If I thought that Tom could easily prevent it and still achieve the end goal of a society that has freely chosen his sense of love, justice, peace, forgiveness etc then I'd agree with you. You can say that I believe in a lessor god if you like, but a god who can breathe life into mindless matter and then give us freedom to choose selfless love to achieve something even greater is big enough for me.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Tangle Member Posts: 9515 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
GDR writes: I don't see it as experimenting on people at all. It is very much like our own children. We give birth to them and our job in raising them is to help them independently grow into people that make the right choices. Sometimes our efforts are successful and sometimes less so but we aren't experimenting. I can't seem to get across to you that this is GOD we're talking about, not people. You're anthropomorphising is preventing you thinking logically. He can do anything he likes - otherwise he's not a god. If he's so bothered about people that he created an entire universe for them of unimaginable size, then went on to create a few chemicals which would evolve naturally over an unimaginable timescale into what he had in mind all along, surely he can do it in a way that doesn't mean sacrificing billions of his creation in the process. At least he can't do that in a way that also says he loves them.
If I thought that Tom could easily prevent it and still achieve the end goal of a society that has freely chosen his sense of love, justice, peace, forgiveness etc then I'd agree with you. But of course this is possible. You could dream up any number of scenarios in moments. But you don't want to and when other do it for you, you bang on about robots and freewill - all of which have be answered many times here. The truth is that science now has perfectly good answers to both the question of morality and of suffering, whilst religion has failed to show a good reason for either - despite 3,000 years of trying.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes: I can't seem to get across to you that this is GOD we're talking about, not people. You're anthropomorphising is preventing you thinking logically. Of course I anthropomorphically understand God. It is the only frame of reference that people can use. One of the Christian views is that we are God’s image bearing creatures and that we are called to reflect His love and care in our stewardship of this world. Jesus referred to God as the Father so I think that as a Christian it is quite reasonable to compare the role of God as Father of all mankind to the individual human father. Obviously with approach this with a different POV but from a Christian POV what I say is consistent and logical.
Tangle writes: He can do anything he likes - otherwise he's not a god. That is your view of a god. As I said earlier if a god capable of bringing intelligent life from mindless particles is powerful enough for me.
Tangle writes: If he's so bothered about people that he created an entire universe for them of unimaginable size, then went on to create a few chemicals which would evolve naturally over an unimaginable timescale into what he had in mind all along, surely he can do it in a way that doesn't mean sacrificing billions of his creation in the process.At least he can't do that in a way that also says he loves them. That is just you anthropomorphising with your version of what you think a god should be which is fair enough. However, with your human mindset you see a universe of unimaginable size with an unimaginable timescale. Maybe from Tom’s perspective the universe is still a singularity where time as we experience it doesn’t exist. It is only from your perspective that millions have been sacrificed. If Tom’s plan is that life is eternal then nothing has been sacrificed.
Tangle writes: The truth is that science now has perfectly good answers to both the question of morality and of suffering, whilst religion has failed to show a good reason for either - despite 3,000 years of trying. People have speculated on how morality could have evolved and called it science but it is no more scientific than my view is.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Tangle Member Posts: 9515 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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GDR writes: Obviously with approach this with a different POV but from a Christian POV what I say is consistent and logical. Christians do not get to say that their logic is special. They can say that their beliefs are internally consistent - they would be wrong - but logic is not confined to a religious view - it stands alone. Suffering is not logically consistent with a loving god.
That is your view of a god. As I said earlier if a god capable of bringing intelligent life from mindless particles is powerful enough for me. So you have your own personal definition of a God? That's convenient - get's you out of all sorts of difficulties.
It is only from your perspective that millions have been sacrificed. If Tom’s plan is that life is eternal then nothing has been sacrificed. If Tom's plan was eternal life for us all, why the hell doesn't he just give it to us all? None of this makes any sense at all. It's just invention, a huge pile of concocted apologetics.
People have speculated on how morality could have evolved and called it science but it is no more scientific than my view is. You're already in a lot of trouble over this one, I'll let others deal with it. In the meantime, you really should think more about suffering and death - because that is very simply explained by biology and you have no answer at all.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes: Christians do not get to say that their logic is special. They can say that their beliefs are internally consistent - they would be wrong - but logic is not confined to a religious view - it stands alone. Sure but nobody's logic is special. Both of us are interested in the truth about why we are here and the meaning of life or even if there is meaning. We don't have certainty and we form our subjective views based on what we do know.
Tangle writes:
Loving parents have children knowing that there will be suffering in that child's life. Is that logical? We know that evil and suffering exist but we also know that the chances are that the good will outweigh the bad and at the same time we do what we can to alleviate the suffering. Suffering is not logically consistent with a loving god. I still see God the same way as that and so I don't accept that suffering isn't consistent with a loving god.
Tangle writes: So you have your own personal definition of a God? That's convenient - get's you out of all sorts of difficulties. It isn’t that I have my own personal definition of God, but yes I have my own personal understanding of the nature of God. If we come to the conclusion that Tom exists, which I obviously have then we all as individuals come to our own conclusions about his nature. IMHO we should be looking at all resources to come to that conclusion including so-called holy books, the thought so others, natural theologies such as science including biology, and we should also look to our own hearts to gain understanding. Obviously it isn’t an exact science and I don’t doubt that there are things I believe that are wrong. However, I am convinced that God is good and that He is just and that is the nature of the God I wish to worship and serve. If I am wrong then so be it.
Tangle writes: If Tom's plan was eternal life for us all, why the hell doesn't he just give it to us all? None of this makes any sense at all. It's just invention, a huge pile of concocted apologetics. Well again IMHO he does give it to us all. However he offers a specific plan for the future that we can choose to buy into or reject. Again I suggest reading The Great Divorce by CS Lewis. Here is one statement from it which I have quoted before.
C S Lewis writes: There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened. God wants us to choose His truth, mercy, justice and love but in order to choose it we also need to be able to reject it.
Tangle writes: In the meantime, you really should think more about suffering and death - because that is very simply explained by biology and you have no answer at all. I have given you an answer which you don’t accept.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Tangle Member Posts: 9515 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
GDR writes: Loving parents have children knowing that there will be suffering in that child's life. Is that logical? We know that evil and suffering exist but we also know that the chances are that the good will outweigh the bad and at the same time we do what we can to alleviate the suffering.I still see God the same way as that and so I don't accept that suffering isn't consistent with a loving god. You're forgetting again, this is GOD. Not your mum. He can prevent suffering. Your mum tried her hardest to prevent you from suffering because she actually exists and loves you - I assume. Tom can prevent suffering but he doesn't. In my world, that means god doesn't love people or he doesn't exist and no amount of weird rationalisations and logic mashing can put a dent in that.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes: Tom can prevent suffering but he doesn't. In my world, that means god doesn't love people or he doesn't exist and no amount of weird rationalisations and logic mashing can put a dent in that. Your view of Tom is that he can prevent suffering. How do you know that? If I am right about Christianity, then God didn’t seem to be able to prevent suffering. He has however given mankind the ability to be able to reduce suffering and we see that happening all the time.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
You're forgetting again, this is GOD... He can prevent suffering... Tom can prevent suffering but he doesn't. In my world, that means god doesn't love people or he doesn't exist and no amount of weird rationalisations and logic mashing can put a dent in that. "Your world" is just the usual self-deception. Apparently you love it. Is it true that God "can prevent suffering?" Not according to orthodox Christian theology. You are making it a matter of POWER, but power is not the issue here, the issue is RIGHTEOUSNESS or moral integrity. Self invented "Christian" style theologies like yours or GDR's always underestimate the effect of human UNrighteousness or sin on God's actions (not to mention on the world itself, human nature and so on), There are many places in scripture where God is said to HATE wickedness and hate those who do it. Scripture also says the entire human race is born in sin and deserves nothing but the Hell that awaits those who continue in their sin. Funny that gets overlooked. God is nevertheless merciful even to sinners, or to the "unjust" as the passage says that affirms his goodness in sending rain to both just and unjust. He also gives means to mitigate human suffering. But why should He do this for a rebellious race that hates Him? Simply because He is good. Yet His patience, while long-suffering, is ultimately limited. Your self invented "god" would be infinitely nice to wicked humanity who hate Him. Why should He be?
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Unless the righteous have never had anything evil happen to them, which the have, then you don't really have a point.
Since God lets evil things happen to the righteous, then he either lacks the power or the will to prevent it.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Faith writes: But why should He do this for a rebellious race that hates Him? Simply because He is good. Yet His patience, while long-suffering, is ultimately limited. Your self invented "god" would be infinitely nice to wicked humanity who hate Him. Why should He be? This is what using the Bible in a way that was never intended brings you. You once again distort the nature of God as incarnate in Jesus. These are the words of Jesus the one who is the incarnate Word of God. The Bible is not the centre of the Christian faith, Jesus is. This is from Luke Chapter 6.
quote: I'll repeat the last part just so you don't miss it. "He is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked. Be merciful just as your Father is merciful." When you say "why should He be" I have to shake my head. That is what He calls us to be and do you really believe that God would hold us to a higher standard than He does himself? IMHO He is the standard. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Tangle Member Posts: 9515 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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GDR writes: Your view of Tom is that he can prevent suffering. How do you know that? Because he's GOD.
If I am right about Christianity, then God didn’t seem to be able to prevent suffering. Then he's not god. Or, he invented us knowing we would suffer and couldn't prevent it, but did it anyway. In which case, not only is he an incompetent lessor god, but he's also evil.
He has however given mankind the ability to be able to reduce suffering and we see that happening all the time. Mankind reduces the suffering that your incompetent, lessor god imposed on us. Nothing to do with this useless god of yours.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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onifre Member (Idle past 2980 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined:
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Where have I claimed that it does? You keep saying that what we're talking about excludes the possibility of a god. That is why I said, science doesn't deal with the supernatural - or any other purely imagined being/s. They work with actual evidence, not your subjective notions.
Show me one bit of concrete evidence that altruism has a genetic foundation. Sure, which I have. But here, more on the subject: MSU research sheds light on how we become altruistic quote: Here is a study done by Berkeley that actually pin-points the genes: Is There an Altruism Gene? quote: Now will you concede that altruism is genetically based?
I'll repeat the statement by Francis Collins. No need to. Since, as you can see, there is actual research on the subject. - Oni Edited by onifre, : No reason given. Edited by onifre, : No reason given.
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onifre Member (Idle past 2980 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined:
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Yet His patience, while long-suffering, is ultimately limited. Then he's not god. - Oni
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
GDR writes: Your view of Tom is that he can prevent suffering. How do you know that?Tangle writes: Because he's GOD. That's an easy answer but that is an answer that fits your idea of what a god should be.
Tangle writes: Then he's not god. Or, he invented us knowing we would suffer and couldn't prevent it, but did it anyway. In which case, not only is he an incompetent lessor god, but he's also evil. He may be lessor in your eyes but if He is responsible for all life then that is powerful enough for me. So He has gone ahead and given us a life that involves suffering but also a life that has the potential for great joy. The Christian message too is that this is a work in progress and that ultimately there will be a world where sorrow will be a dim memory. If you think God is evil for bringing life to a lifeless world that involves suffering then so be it, but you then have to consider every parent who decides to have children, knowing that they will be born into a world that still involves suffering, evil as well.
Tangle writes: Mankind reduces the suffering that your incompetent, lessor god imposed on us. Nothing to do with this useless god of yours. That is your take on it. IMHO mankind has reduced suffering as God gave us the will and the intelligence to be able to do just that. For that matter that is our primary job that we are given to do; which is to bring God's love and healing to the world where it suffers.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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