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Author | Topic: Importance of Original Sin | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jaywill Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
Now, what is the living word of god other than more carny con-games and word salad? Nope. you get no more. 28890 asdfdasoZXC tti--i asgdj qi-43q-as sadfpojpjoxcvz
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Nonsense. You have to interpret God's breath the same way everybody else does, by logic, reason and possibly even reality.
The word itself is not mere human interpretation...it is God Breathed. Phat writes:
But any buffoon can claim he understands what God is saying.
...this is not some basic common sense that any buffoon who wishes to understand it and also keep their own imagination and outlook can even see.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Nope. you get no more. Great answer and related to the topic. When pressed to define, explain or justify all the carny cons used in the Christian Cult of Ignorance like Original Sin, being Born Again, being Saved, the living word of god, having a spiritual mind or ear or heart it seems folk that claim them just run away. That's expected. It's the easy way out. The cop out. Yes, Original Sin is important to the Christian Cult of Ignorance because condemns, then it transfers guilt and provides the basis of the continuation of the Christian Cult of Ignorance, the promise of salvation. Of course, that is a product that can be sold with no fear of product liability or truth in advertising requirements. And that is how to mine gold.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: We are not simply talking about feeling here. You are right in that far too many charismaniacs rely on feeling alone as a determination of truth. The difference between you and I is that I rely on what the Bible actually says and you rely on what all of the books say. Your first mistake (among many) is that you don't believe the books we call "The Bible" are divinely inspired. On the one hand, when talking of Matthew 25, for example, you dutifully point us to what the Bible actually says. On the other hand, you believe the wisdom of humans who are of natural mind and have no idea of what "The Spirit" even is. They lied to you when they taught you that the Gospel of John and many Epistles were written with human intentions in mind. Once they had you questioning the authenticity of scripture, you then superceded the authority of scripture with your own human wisdom.
And just how do you determine that other than using logic, reason and reality? You could use emotion; is that what you use? When something makes you feel good you accept it and when something makes you feel bad you reject it? jar writes: You are also an eternally questioning Christian, which I respect---to a degree. I fear that since you never did (and likely never will) surrender your brain to God, you will always sit on a stump...just outside of communion with Him...and ask a billion questions. Isnt it easy to never surrender? It means YOU are responsible...and can also take credit for helping the neighbor take her trash to the curb. Perhaps you have a lesson to teach us....it remains to be seen.
I am a Christian, a devout Christian and an honest Christian. jar writes: The Bible is not to be understood by reading since by filtering the words of the Bible through linguistic filters keeps human wisdom atop it all. Now, what is the living word of god other than more carny con-games and word salad?jar writes: OK, we will let you pesky intellectual Episcopalians win this round...but be forwarned...your human wisdom won't do anything except keep you away from enlightenment.
Ah, how is that different than checking your brain at the door? jar writes: Lets look at some scriptures and we can test them together. How do you test to see if the interpretation you get is not mere human interpretation? Is there a label that says "Hecho en Paraiso"? First of all, though---how valuable do you consider any wisdom that we can glean from the Bible? Do you consider it on par with Mark Twain? Do you consider the wisdom from all religions to be equally useful? If so, why do you have a standard---or more to the crux---what is your standard as to what constitutes superior wisdom (as opposed to carny card games and word salad? )
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
I am a Christian, a devout Christian and an honest Christian. Ask him if he is then a part of his oft ridiculed "Christian club" or "club Christian." Then sit back and watch him dance.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
What other kind of wisdom is there then human wisdom?
On the other hand, you believe the wisdom of humans who are of natural mind and have no idea of what "The Spirit" even is. And you cannot tell up what "The Spirit" is and how to tell the difference between the spirit and a bad burrito.
I fear that since you never did (and likely never will) surrender your brain to God, you will always sit on a stump...just outside of communion with Him...and ask a billion questions. Thank God. Why would God give folk brains and then want them not to think? Again you have never been able to explain how you can know you are in communion with God and not just a bad burrito.
The Bible is not to be understood by reading since by filtering the words of the Bible through linguistic filters keeps human wisdom atop it all. You gotta be kidding. The Bible is not to be understood by reading it? That is great. Thank you for providing a perfect example of the Christian Cult of Ignorance. And until you tell me how to recognize and test "superior wisdom" there is not much point in going on is there?Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Actually I am a member of a recognized chapter of Club Christian, just not a member of the Christian Cult of Ignorance.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
The Bible is not to be understood by reading since by filtering the words of the Bible through linguistic filters keeps human wisdom atop it all. That folks says it all right there. Ant attempt Phat ever made to make a coherent reasoned comment about religion or the bible is destroyed utterly by this one comment.This is beyond word salad, it is beyond delusion. But it tells us a lot about the thinking of a certain segment of religious people. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: I am a Christian, a devout Christian and an honest Christian. jaywill writes: I am not afraid to question what I believe--and I stumbled over my words when I said that Ask him if he is then a part of his oft ridiculed "Christian club" or "club Christian." Then sit back and watch him dance. quote:What I meant was the opposite. The Bible is to be understood by reading it---scripture, however...does interpret other scripture. What I meant was that the Bible is not understood through human wisdom alone. (I probably should proofread my posts before i submit them so quickly)
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: OK, so I take back what I said about reading. The Bible is to be understood by reading. I didn't proofread that post before submitting it, and that is not what I intended to say.
until you tell me how to recognize and test "superior wisdom" there is not much point in going on is there?
jar writes: Now, what is the living word of god other than more carny con-games and word salad? We believe that the word was the word before it was even written down by humans.
John 1:1-2 writes: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. This does not mean that I won't question it. Test it. Discuss it. It does mean that I won't doubt it because in my mind no human wisdom can top it. No human wisdom explains life as it is better than the Bible.
Theodoric writes: Ahhh yes, the peanut gallery. Welcome, Theodoric..welcome. Of course it appears that you already have your mind made up about the Bible...thus you won't learn anything. Paul claimed that the same thing happened to Israel.
Any attempt Phat ever made to make a coherent reasoned comment about religion or the bible is destroyed utterly by this one comment. This is beyond word salad, it is beyond delusion. But it tells us a lot about the thinking of a certain segment of religious people.Rom 11:8 writes: Interesting passage...and one that brings up that word "spirit".
-- as it is written:"God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day." jar writes: And you cannot tell us what "The Spirit" is and how to tell the difference between the spirit and a bad burrito What does the Bible itself teach us about what Spirit is and what spirit is?
Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words writes: SPIRIT (OF THE DEAD), NECROMANCER--'ob OT:178, "spirit (of the dead); necromancer; pit." This word has cognates in Sumerian, Akkadian, and Ugaritic, where the meanings "pit" and "spirit of one who has died" occur. In its earliest appearances (Sumerian), 'ob refers to a pit out of which a departed spirit may be summoned. Later Assyrian texts use this word to denote simply a pit in the ground. Akkadian texts describe a deity that is the personification of the pit, to whom a particular exorcism ritual was addressed. Biblical Hebrew attests this word 16 times. The word usually represents the troubled spirit (or spirits) of the dead. This meaning appears unquestionably in Isa 29:4: "...thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust." Its second meaning, "necromancer," refers to a professional who claims to summon forth such spirits when requested (or hired) to do so: "Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards" Lev 19:31-- first occurrence. These mediums summoned their "guides" from a hole in the ground. Saul asked the medium (witch) of Endor, "Divine for me from the hole ['ob] 1 Sam 28:8, author's translation. God forbade Israel to seek information by this means, which was so common among the pagans Lev 19:31; Deut 18:11. Perhaps the pagan belief in manipulating one's basic relationship to a god (or gods) explains the relative silence of the Old Testament regarding life after death. Yet God's people believed in life after death, from early times (e. g., Gen 37:35; Isa 14:15 ff.). Necromancy was so contrary to God's commands that its practitioners were under the death penalty Deut 13. Necromancers' unusual experiences do not prove that they truly had power to summon the dead. For example, the medium of Endor could not snatch Samuel out of God's hands against His wishes. But in this particular incident, it seems that God rebuked Saul's apostasy, either through a revived Samuel or through a vision of Samuel. Mediums do not have power to summon the spirits of the dead, since this is reprehensible to God and contrary to His will. Then we have ruach OT:7307 writes:
SPIRIT; BREATH , "breath; air; strength; wind; breeze; spirit; courage; temper; Spirit." This noun has cognates in Ugaritic, Aramaic, and Arabic. The word occurs about 378 times and in all periods of biblical Hebrew. First, this word means "breath," air for breathing, air that is being breathed. This meaning is especially evident in Jer 14:6: "And the wild asses did stand in the high places, they snuffed up the wind like dragons...." When one's "breath" returns, he is revived: "...when he [Samson] had drunk [the water], his spirit [literally, "breath"] came again, and he revived..." Judg 15:19. Astonishment may take away one's "breath": "And when the queen of Sheba had seen all Solomon's wisdom, and the home that he had built, And the meat of his table,... there was no more spirit in her [she was overwhelmed and breathless]" 1 Kings 10:4-5. Ruach may also represent speaking, or the breath of one's mouth: "By the word of the Lord were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth" Ps. 33:6>; cf. Ex 15:8; Job 4:9; 19:17. Second, this word can be used with emphasis on the invisible, intangible, fleeting quality of "air": "O remember that my life is wind: mine eyes shall no more see good" Job 7:7. There may be a suggestion of purposelessness, uselessness, or even vanity (emptiness) when ruach is used with this significance: "And the prophets shall become wind, and the word is not in them..." Jer 5:13. "Windy words" are really "empty words" Job 16:3, just as "windy knowledge" is "empty knowledge" Job 15:2 cf. Eccl 1:14,17--" meaningless striving". In Prov 11:29 ruach means "nothing": "He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind...." This nuance is especially prominent in Eccl 5:15-16: "And he came forth of his mother's womb, naked shall he return to go as he came, and shall take nothing of his labor, which he may carry away in his hand. And this also is a sore evil, that in all points as he came, so shall he go: and what profit hath he that hath labored for the wind?" Third, ruach can mean "wind." In Gen 3:8 it seems to mean the gentle, refreshing evening breeze so well known in the Near East: "And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool [literally, "breeze"] of the day...." It can mean a strong, constant wind: "...and the Lord brought an east wind upon the land all that day, and all that night..." Ex 10:13. It can also signify an extremely strong wind: "And the Lord turned a mighty strong west wind..." Ex 10:19. In Jer 4:11 the word appears to represent a gale or tornado (cf. Hos 8:7). God is the Creator Amos 4:13 and sovereign Controller of the winds Gen 8:1; Num 11:31; Jer 10:13. Fourth, the wind represents direction. In Jer 49:36 the four winds represent the four ends of the earth, which in turn represent every quarter: "And upon Elam will I bring the four winds [peoples from every quarter of the earth] from the four quarters of heaven, and will scatter them toward all those winds; and there shall be no nation whither the outcasts of Elam shall not come." Akkadian attests the same phrase with the same meaning, and this phrase begins to appear in Hebrew at a time when contact with Akkadian-speaking peoples was frequent. Fifth, ruach frequently represents the element of life in a man, his natural "spirit": "And all flesh died that moved upon the earth,... All in whose nostrils was the breath of life..." Gen 7:21-22. In these verses the animals have a "spirit" (cf. Ps 104:29). On the other hand, in Prov 16:2 the word appears to mean more than just the element of life; it seems to mean "soul": "All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the Lord weigheth the spirits [NASB, "motives"]." Thus, Isaiah can put nepesh, "soul," and ruach in synonymous parallelism: "With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early..." 26:9. It is the "spirit" of a man that returns to God Eccl 12:7 Ringo writes: Not exactly. You have to interpret God's breath the same way everybody else does, by logic, reason and possibly even reality. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
Ahhh yes, the peanut gallery. Welcome, Theodoric..welcome. Of course it appears that you already have your mind made up about the Bible...thus you won't learn anything. Well with people like you as its publicists why the hell would I even think it could have anything to teach me. I have read the bible(The Jerusalem, King James, Good News, New Revised Catholic Edition)4 times now. Are you telling me I am reading it wrong? How am I supposed to read it so that it teaches this divine wisdom you claim is in it?Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Damn Phat, look at what you did yet again.
You keep claiming stuff but never support your position. You titled this sub-topic as "What is spirit" yet you never show how you know what is a spirit. Look at your support, it is what other folk tell you is THEIR interpretations. I'm asking you how you know you are communing with the spirit or a bad burrito?
We believe that the word was the word before it was even written down by humans. Yet you can't tell me what "the Word" is. You seem to have nothing except word salad Phat, bumper stickers. Do you honestly think your posts address the questions asked? Are you satisfied that "We believe that the word was the word before it was even written down by humans." has any meaning? Can you really read something like "This does not mean that I won't question it. Test it. Discuss it. It does mean that I won't doubt it because in my mind no human wisdom can top it. No human wisdom explains life as it is better than the Bible. " without laughing at it and thinking the writer had to be nuts?Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
quote: Hardly an ignorant man.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
So once again, what do you have that's beyond human wisdom? And what do you use to determine that something is beyond human wisdom?
What I meant was that the Bible is not understood through human wisdom alone.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Even wise men can be wrong. Notice he produces no support for that assertion.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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